Gee, thanks Andy

[Profoundwizard]

Still waiting on the data that says 75 pitches is safe but 107 is abuse

[Show Me]

It’s not the one game. It’s year round baseball that has caused the arm problems. Years ago most good athletes played all the sports however the problems began from kids playing baseball 12 months a year trying to get signed. Travel ball etc. Big difference today. Playing year round they could burn up their arms throwing 50 pitches an outing.

You nailed it 100%. The year round playing using the same muscles and motion day after day burns out the young kids arms. The high school coaches have them for only 2-3 months out of the year at the most. It’s the other months of playing that is causing the problem.

[Show Me]

Still waiting on the data that says 75 pitches is safe but 107 is abuse

Correct. 107 is not abuse. I’ll believe those in charge over Winwave saying 125 is a good limit for high school games. Coaches know their players better than any of us. If he went over 125 then I’d have a problem.

[DfromCT]

As an umpire, we don't count pitches but rely on the coaches, who are to certify the pitch count by the OPPOSITION'S pitcher at the end of the game, to have accurate counts. In CT the rule is 110 pitches in a DAY (not game), and a minimum of 3 calendar days after making more than 50 legal pitches. In Louisiana, the limit is 125. I would bet dimes to dollars there was/is a whole lot of input from the medical folks when any state creates limits like this. The 75 number that winwave came up with seems totally arbitrary because he's not cited any source despite repeated pleas in this thread to do so. 75 is the number in Little League for 9-10 year old kids. 11-12 year old kids can throw 85 in a day and 13-16 year old kids can throw 95 pitches. These are Little League rules in all states. I didn't know little league went past 12 year old kids, in CT you move up to Babe Ruth or American Legion ball after 12.

I wouldn't want my son to throw 100 pitches in back to back games. I wouldn't want him throwing that many in every other game. Approaching the limit is something that should happen once or twice in a HS season. Doing it regularly will result in "dead arm" which players don't understand as teenager, probably don't disclose to anyone, and can cause further damage. Winwave is right about players burning out their arms. But the number of pitches he keeps insisting upon seems to have come out of thin air.

In NCAA baseball there is no rule w/r/t pitching limits. Coaches are encouraged to follow the recommendation of a 120 pitch limit, not pitching twice in the same day, and not pitching more than 2 consecutive days. But these are simply recommendations.

There's also rules about catchers not being able to become pitchers. In most cases, if they catch 4 innings, they're ineligible to pitch.

[winwave]

They don't play 12 months a year with travel ball. Players have always played Legion ball throughout the summer . Arms were getting ruined by the same coaches overthrowing their best pitcher long before travel ball came around. It takes time for players to mature and gain the strength needed to raise their pitch counts. 107 pitches is too much for HS pitcher and it won't be a one time thing. That's the point. It's abusive and the buck stops with the coaches. If the HS coaches are blaming travel ball they have a lot of influence with the parents. They could point out the ills of it but yet they don't.

[Profoundwizard]

Show us why 75 pitches is ok but 76,77 or 107 is not.

[tpstulane]

They don't play 12 months a year with travel ball. Players have always played Legion ball throughout the summer . Arms were getting ruined by the same coaches overthrowing their best pitcher long before travel ball came around. It takes time for players to mature and gain the strength needed to raise their pitch counts. 107 pitches is too much for HS pitcher and it won't be a one time thing. That's the point. It's abusive and the buck stops with the coaches. If the HS coaches are blaming travel ball they have a lot of influence with the parents. They could point out the ills of it but yet they don't.

Absolutely the dedicated ones play year round. Those days your talking about are long gone.
https://selectbaseballteams.com/blog/tr ... -baseball/

Long gone are the days when kids played baseball for their high school in the early spring and then a junior legion or legion ball in the summer. Today kids play baseball year-round with various levels of travel teams.

That’s why you’re seeing arm issues like never before. It’s the year round BS. I blame the ambitious parents for this. They want their kid seen. One big difference is that scouts are very much present at travel ball games once players reach the age of 16. This is not often seen at the high school level unless a team has an all-league or all-county superstar on the roster.
Kids have many coaches but only one mom and dad.

[winwave]

Show us why 75 pitches is ok but 76,77 or 107 is not.

Show me the research that says 107 over and over for a HS pitcher is ok.

[winwave]

They don't play 12 months a year with travel ball. Players have always played Legion ball throughout the summer . Arms were getting ruined by the same coaches overthrowing their best pitcher long before travel ball came around. It takes time for players to mature and gain the strength needed to raise their pitch counts. 107 pitches is too much for HS pitcher and it won't be a one time thing. That's the point. It's abusive and the buck stops with the coaches. If the HS coaches are blaming travel ball they have a lot of influence with the parents. They could point out the ills of it but yet they don't.

Absolutely the dedicated ones play year round. Those days your talking about are long gone.
https://selectbaseballteams.com/blog/tr ... -baseball/

Long gone are the days when kids played baseball for their high school in the early spring and then a junior legion or legion ball in the summer. Today kids play baseball year-round with various levels of travel teams.

That’s why you’re seeing arm issues like never before. It’s the year round BS. I blame the ambitious parents for this. They want their kid seen. One big difference is that scouts are very much present at travel ball games once players reach the age of 16. This is not often seen at the high school level unless a team has an all-league or all-county superstar on the roster.
Kids have many coaches but only one mom and dad.

As pointed out there those teams are stocked with the best players unlike HS ball where they are spread around. So the pitchers don't have to be overused because there are other capable pitchers available. For the most part it is a lazy short article. Most of these HS athletes play multiple sports and their travel ball participation is limited by that.

[Profoundwizard]

Show us why 75 pitches is ok but 76,77 or 107 is not.

Show me the research that says 107 over and over for a HS pitcher is ok.

I asked you first

[Profoundwizard]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

[tpstulane]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

No better source than Dr Andrews!
Thank You!
But of course we have our one expert here that knows better

And of course we agree that it’s the parents.

Parents need to realize that the number-one risk factor of arm injuries for our youth continues to be year-round baseball or softball. If parents understand the injury risk factors, it only takes common sense to be able to recognize what to do to decrease injuries.

[tpstulane]

They don't play 12 months a year with travel ball. Players have always played Legion ball throughout the summer . Arms were getting ruined by the same coaches overthrowing their best pitcher long before travel ball came around. It takes time for players to mature and gain the strength needed to raise their pitch counts. 107 pitches is too much for HS pitcher and it won't be a one time thing. That's the point. It's abusive and the buck stops with the coaches. If the HS coaches are blaming travel ball they have a lot of influence with the parents. They could point out the ills of it but yet they don't.

Absolutely the dedicated ones play year round. Those days your talking about are long gone.
https://selectbaseballteams.com/blog/tr ... -baseball/

Long gone are the days when kids played baseball for their high school in the early spring and then a junior legion or legion ball in the summer. Today kids play baseball year-round with various levels of travel teams.

That’s why you’re seeing arm issues like never before. It’s the year round BS. I blame the ambitious parents for this. They want their kid seen. One big difference is that scouts are very much present at travel ball games once players reach the age of 16. This is not often seen at the high school level unless a team has an all-league or all-county superstar on the roster.
Kids have many coaches but only one mom and dad.

As pointed out there those teams are stocked with the best players unlike HS ball where they are spread around. So the pitchers don't have to be overused because there are other capable pitchers available. For the most part it is a lazy short article. Most of these HS athletes play multiple sports and their travel ball participation is limited by that.

Wait I thought you said they don’t play 12 months

[Profoundwizard]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

No better source than Dr Andrews!
Thank You!
But of course we have our one expert here that knows better

Knows better than everyone about everything

[tpstulane]

We can argue all day long whether or not 107 in one day is too many. However as Doc Andrew’s has said no arguing that overuse is the blame for arm injuries we commonly see today. Those arm and shoulder muscles need rest to recover.

[tpstulane]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

No better source than Dr Andrews!
Thank You!
But of course we have our one expert here that knows better

Knows better than everyone about everything

[Pepper]

No better source than Dr Andrews!
Thank You!
But of course we have our one expert here that knows better

Knows better than everyone about everything

Amen.

[Show Me]

Knows better than everyone about everything

Amen.

I second

[winwave]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

Let's see. The article starts out talking about overuse from throwing too many pitches in games and says that recently pitch counts have been put in place. It talks about several ways the arm can become fatigued. Andrews made millions performing arm and shoulder surgeries long before travel ball came into being. So the grown ups can understand that there are multiple ways for the injuries to occur and overuse by being made to throw too many pitches has been around a whole lot longer than travel ball. Then there are those that are going to just protect their boy. 107 pitches is abusive. As I posted above he started pitching him close to 100 pitches early last year. He's picking up where he left off. He hasn't pitched year round this year as there is this little thing called a pandemic.

[winwave]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

No better source than Dr Andrews!
Thank You!
But of course we have our one expert here that knows better

And of course we agree that it’s the parents.

Parents need to realize that the number-one risk factor of arm injuries for our youth continues to be year-round baseball or softball. If parents understand the injury risk factors, it only takes common sense to be able to recognize what to do to decrease injuries.

Andrews agrees that overuse from throwing too many pitches in games is a major factor too. He knows that because he made his fortune in his field long before travel ball came to be.

Pot calling the kettle black.

[winwave]

Absolutely the dedicated ones play year round. Those days your talking about are long gone.
https://selectbaseballteams.com/blog/tr ... -baseball/



That’s why you’re seeing arm issues like never before. It’s the year round BS. I blame the ambitious parents for this. They want their kid seen. One big difference is that scouts are very much present at travel ball games once players reach the age of 16. This is not often seen at the high school level unless a team has an all-league or all-county superstar on the roster.
Kids have many coaches but only one mom and dad.

As pointed out there those teams are stocked with the best players unlike HS ball where they are spread around. So the pitchers don't have to be overused because there are other capable pitchers available. For the most part it is a lazy short article. Most of these HS athletes play multiple sports and their travel ball participation is limited by that.

Wait I thought you said they don’t play 12 months

I did. As i posted above he certainly hasn't pitched 12 months out of the year in the last 12 months. Little thing called the pandemic. Show us his travel ball schedule showing he's played 12 months out the year since he was a kid.

[winwave]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

No better source than Dr Andrews!
Thank You!
But of course we have our one expert here that knows better

Knows better than everyone about everything

Pot calling the kettle black.

[winwave]

We can argue all day long whether or not 107 in one day is too many. However as Doc Andrew’s has said no arguing that overuse is the blame for arm injuries we commonly see today. Those arm and shoulder muscles need rest to recover.

He also noted that throwing too many pitches in games can cause those injuries as they long did before travel ball existed.

[winwave]

Amen.

I second

Pots calling the kettle black.

[Profoundwizard]

Dr James Andrews says that year round play is the number one risk of arm injuries
https://www.littleleague.org/partnersh ... ound-play/

Maybe tps knows what he’s talking about

Let's see. The article starts out talking about overuse from throwing too many pitches in games and says that recently pitch counts have been put in place. It talks about several ways the arm can become fatigued. Andrews made millions performing arm and shoulder surgeries long before travel ball came into being. So the grown ups can understand that there are multiple ways for the injuries to occur and overuse by being made to throw too many pitches has been around a whole lot longer than travel ball. Then there are those that are going to just protect their boy. 107 pitches is abusive. As I posted above he started pitching him close to 100 pitches early last year. He's picking up where he left off. He hasn't pitched year round this year as there is this little thing called a pandemic.

107 is not abusive.
It’s 2 pitches over the recommended Pitch count of the PitchSmart guidelines for 17-18 year olds. It’s a recommendation because even the Doctors that study this stuff know that there’s no cut and dry absolute number that you can’t go over.

You don’t know more than the Doctors