What were the the fundamental circumstances

[wave97]

What were the the fundamental circumstances & motives that ultimately brought about the G5/P5 schism?
The regulatory authorities?
Athletic departments?
Broadcasters?.....
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Answer: Title IX

[Aberzombie1892]

What were the the fundamental circumstances & motives that ultimately brought about the G5/P5 schism?
The regulatory authorities?
Athletic departments?
Broadcasters?.....

Answer: Title IX

Uh....it was the consolidation of the big money programs into 5 conferences.

Any conference with both Michigan and Ohio State is a P5 conference regardless of who else is in the conference - the same is true for a conference with both Texas and Oklahoma or for a conference with Alabama plus two of LSU/Georgia/Florida.

[wave97]

What were the the fundamental circumstances & motives that ultimately brought about the G5/P5 schism?
The regulatory authorities?
Athletic departments?
Broadcasters?.....

Answer: Title IX

Uh....it was the consolidation of the big money programs into 5 conferences.

Any conference with both Michigan and Ohio State is a P5 conference regardless of who else is in the conference - the same is true for a conference with both Texas and Oklahoma or for a conference with Alabama plus two of LSU/Georgia/Florida.

Of course, but what mechanism did they use to consolidate?

[DfromCT]

What were the the fundamental circumstances & motives that ultimately brought about the G5/P5 schism?
The regulatory authorities?
Athletic departments?
Broadcasters?.....

Answer: Title IX

Uh....it was the consolidation of the big money programs into 5 conferences.

Any conference with both Michigan and Ohio State is a P5 conference regardless of who else is in the conference - the same is true for a conference with both Texas and Oklahoma or for a conference with Alabama plus two of LSU/Georgia/Florida.

Of course, but what mechanism did they use to consolidate?

TV Contracts, with the 4 Networks and ESPN.

[wave97]

What gave conferences/institutions the ability to negotiate broadcasting rights?

[Aberzombie1892]

Well, the mechanism that they used was their value. By consolidating into fewer conferences, the NCAA/Networks would be willing to give them more concessions than other conferences by offering less to those other conferences.

The access bowls agreed to the current format of being affiliated with P5s in part because they know that the programs that recruit the best will most likely make the NY6 bowls over teams that do not, and that that fact combined with the consolidation of the high profile programs into fewer conferences almost guaranteed that a high profile program would make the NY6 bowl the vast majority of time. Essentially, they are gambling on the low probability that a program that recruits outside of the top 20-25 would make an NY6 bowl outside of the G5 slot, and they've generally been right.

What gave conferences/institutions the ability to negotiate broadcasting rights?

The NCAA's loss of a monopoly over those rights.

[wave97]

Do you think it is coincidental that the enforcement of Title IX and NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma, 468 U.S. 85 (1984) happened at the same time period? I don't.

[DfromCT]

What gave conferences/institutions the ability to negotiate broadcasting rights?

There were serious political discussions in the 1990's about the NCAA losing it's rights to qualify as a non profit and get rid of the antitrust (Taft/Hartley?) waiver it enjoyed. I'm no expert on the subject, but that's when the money really started getting split between the have's and the have not's. I'm not sure exactly how those discussions and the separation occurred.

[golfnut69]

I think it was TV Networks colluding with the Russians

[wave97]

All Oklahoma had to argue was that feds via title IX were placing a great burden upon their athletic department while their tv revenue was being restricted by the NCAA. This case was over before it started. The NCAA has been gelded ever since.

[wave97]

I think it was TV Networks colluding with the Russians

It was Covfefe.
Definition: desperately looking in from the outside.

[Aberzombie1892]

Do you think it is coincidental that the enforcement of Title IX and NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma, 468 U.S. 85 (1984) happened at the same time period? I don't.

For the sake of exploring that topic, how do you believe that Title IX led to the separation of the conferences?

Please note, however, that it was also 1984 when the NCAA lost its monopoly over the tv rights. To be brutally honest, that monopoly was the main issue that prevented it from being desirable for high profile programs to consolidate the way that they have since.

[HoustonWave]

Title IX could have played some part. But clearly the football factories realized there was far more money to be made in a restructured NCAA. Once Oklahoma and Georgia destroyed the NCAA TV monopoly, then it was just a matter of what is the optimal (from a TV revenue standpoint) conference structures and members. That conference restructuring has evolved ever since the late 80's, and has gone through several phases--CSA, BCS and now the P5/playoff system. Either the conferences will change, or the revenue sharing formulas will change, as the P5 football factories get tired of carrying the P5 parasites.

[Aberzombie1892]

Title IX could have played some part. But clearly the football factories realized there was far more money to be made in a restructured NCAA. Once Oklahoma and Georgia destroyed the NCAA TV monopoly, then it was just a matter of what is the optimal (from a TV revenue standpoint) conference structures and members. That conference restructuring has evolved ever since the late 80's, and has gone through several phases--CSA, BCS and now the P5/playoff system. Either the conferences will change, or the revenue sharing formulas will change, as the P5 football factories get tired of carrying the P5 parasites.

They have to carry the parasites though because the high profile programs need to collect wins against someone.

Imagine this 16 team conference:

Texas
Oklahoma
Texas A&M (or Washington or Oregon)
LSU
Alabama
Auburn
Georgia
Florida
Florida State
Clemson
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Nebraska
USC
Notre Dame

Now that it's been imagined, it would never be created since -someone- has to lose the conference games, and, because those programs wouldn't want to cannibalise each other in that manner, they wouldn't consolidate into a single conference. A great example of this is that the SEC's consolidation alone has destroyed a few once proud programs - Arkansas, Tennessee, etc.

[DfromCT]

Title IX could have played some part. But clearly the football factories realized there was far more money to be made in a restructured NCAA. Once Oklahoma and Georgia destroyed the NCAA TV monopoly, then it was just a matter of what is the optimal (from a TV revenue standpoint) conference structures and members. That conference restructuring has evolved ever since the late 80's, and has gone through several phases--CSA, BCS and now the P5/playoff system. Either the conferences will change, or the revenue sharing formulas will change, as the P5 football factories get tired of carrying the P5 parasites.

They have to carry the parasites though because the high profile programs need to collect wins against someone.

Imagine this 16 team conference:

Texas
Oklahoma
Texas A&M (or Washington or Oregon)
LSU
Alabama
Auburn
Georgia
Florida
Florida State
Clemson
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Nebraska
USC
Notre Dame

Now that it's been imagined, it would never be created since -someone- has to lose the conference games, and, because those programs wouldn't want to cannibalise each other in that manner, they wouldn't consolidate into a single conference. A great example of this is that the SEC's consolidation alone has destroyed a few once proud programs - Arkansas, Tennessee, etc.

Yeah, that would be the be-all and end-all of what would become a P4. Not P5, but P4.

It will NEVER happen.

Notre Dame, if it joins a conference, will join the ACC and is contractually obligated to do so through 2035. Geographically, that proposed conference is a nightmare.

I can easily see the landscape changing to 4 conferences of 16 teams. Unfortunately, we would not be one of the 64 teams among the "have's" unless we post winning seasons for 10 or more seasons and build a respectable fan base. We're well back in the list of G5 programs that want into the club.

[HoustonWave]

Title IX could have played some part. But clearly the football factories realized there was far more money to be made in a restructured NCAA. Once Oklahoma and Georgia destroyed the NCAA TV monopoly, then it was just a matter of what is the optimal (from a TV revenue standpoint) conference structures and members. That conference restructuring has evolved ever since the late 80's, and has gone through several phases--CSA, BCS and now the P5/playoff system. Either the conferences will change, or the revenue sharing formulas will change, as the P5 football factories get tired of carrying the P5 parasites.

They have to carry the parasites though because the high profile programs need to collect wins against someone.

Imagine this 16 team conference:

Texas
Oklahoma
Texas A&M (or Washington or Oregon)
LSU
Alabama
Auburn
Georgia
Florida
Florida State
Clemson
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Nebraska
USC
Notre Dame

Now that it's been imagined, it would never be created since -someone- has to lose the conference games, and, because those programs wouldn't want to cannibalise each other in that manner, they wouldn't consolidate into a single conference. A great example of this is that the SEC's consolidation alone has destroyed a few once proud programs - Arkansas, Tennessee, etc.

The P5 parasites will still play them, just for less money, they really have no choice. Look at every G5 team, they all would gladly take a reduced P5 share to get into a P5 conference. Eventually, I think the P5 parasite share of revenue won't be that much more than the better G5 schools. Also, the football factories can always throw an extra $1MM on the table for any P5 parasite or G5 team--ala Auburn vs Tulane this past season. The football factories will always be able to schedule "planned wins"--it certainly won't stop the football factories from pursuing the next phase of their money grab.

[wave97]

There were many attempts to mitigate the impact of Title IX on revenue producing sports. By the mid eighties the writing was on the wall & the jig was up. Men's non-rev sports have never been the same for the athletic departments left behind. Women's athletics has never had it so good for any collegiate athletics program.
To say that the enforcement of title 9 didn't have a pivotal effect on the future of revenue producing sports is naive or cynical.

May 20, 1974
Senator Tower proposes the “Tower Amendment,” which would exempt revenue-producing sports from determinations of Title IX compliance. The amendment is rejected.

July 1974
In the spirit of Senator Tower’s failed amendment, Senator Javits submits an amendment directing HEW to issue regulations that provide for “reasonable provisions considering the nature of particular sports” (e.g., event-management needs, etc.) that clarifies that event and uniform expenditures on sports with larger crowds or more expensive equipment do not have to be matched in sports without similar needs.

June 1975
Rep. O’Hara introduces House Bill 8394, which proposes that sports revenues first be used to offset the cost of that sport, and only then to support other sports. The proposed change would effectively alter Title IX’s coverage in athletics. This bill dies in committee before reaching the House floor.

February 17, 1976
NCAA challenges the legality of Title IX.¹

July 15, 1977
Senators Tower, Bartlett, and Hruska introduce Senate Bill (S. 2106), proposing to exclude revenue-producing sports from Title IX coverage. The bill dies in committee before reaching the Senate floor.

[green4life]

Just as a milepost along the way: the 2 Team BCS, a creation of Roy Kramer (Then SEC Commissioner) and others had it's first "BCS National Championship" or whatever they called it, at the end of the 98 season. Ours was one of the first to suffer the "Lockout" or monopoly or cartel (Pick your noun legal scholars) since were were Undefeated - Untied at the end of the season and got to play not in a NYD bowl, but the Liberty bowl.

The ease with wchih Then CUSA commissioner Mike Slive accepted our playing in a bowl at that level was an indication of many things, not least that times had changed since the days of the John Chase program covers. We were at the kids table.

[HoustonWave]

Just as a milepost along the way: the 2 Team BCS, a creation of Roy Kramer (Then SEC Commissioner) and others had it's first "BCS National Championship" or whatever they called it, at the end of the 98 season. Ours was one of the first to suffer the "Lockout" or monopoly or cartel (Pick your noun legal scholars) since were were Undefeated - Untied at the end of the season and got to play not in a NYD bowl, but the Liberty bowl.

The ease with wchih Then CUSA commissioner Mike Slive accepted our playing in a bowl at that level was an indication of many things, not least that times had changed since the days of the John Chase program covers. We were at the kids table.

And Slive was later rewarded for his acquiescences.

[golfnut69]

Just as a milepost along the way: the 2 Team BCS, a creation of Roy Kramer (Then SEC Commissioner) and others had it's first "BCS National Championship" or whatever they called it, at the end of the 98 season. Ours was one of the first to suffer the "Lockout" or monopoly or cartel (Pick your noun legal scholars) since were were Undefeated - Untied at the end of the season and got to play not in a NYD bowl, but the Liberty bowl.

The ease with wchih Then CUSA commissioner Mike Slive accepted our playing in a bowl at that level was an indication of many things, not least that times had changed since the days of the John Chase program covers. We were at the kids table.

And Slive was later rewarded for his acquiescences.

now we know it was Slive who was doing the colluding, not the Russians