Bye Bye Payton Henson

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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby mbawavefan12 » Fri May 08, 2015 1:42 pm

I still say we will miss Stark in 2015-16 but not by 2016-17.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby jonathanjoseph » Fri May 08, 2015 1:47 pm

JerseyWave wrote:We are not going miss any of the departing members of the 2014-15 squad. We are getting a huge upgrade in talent. You can watch film on these guys on youtube. The difference is night and day. It is now Conroy's job to mold the talent into a winning basketball team. It is also time to end the attrition since he will finally have competitive basketball players on the roster. There is going to be an air show in Fogleman that hasn't been seen since the Honeycutt days and I can't wait to watch it.


Again, I agree entirely that this is an infusion of talent and athleticism we haven't had during the Tulane Model era. The increased athleticism alone will make the team worth watching.

But the idea that we can have 2 of our 4 returning expected starters and most experienced players voluntarily leave the program with half their eligibility remaining and it's no problem is crazy. Outside of Kentucky and Duke, no program would not lose something with 2 of their top 4 leaving the program. It's great that the scholarships are going to promising prospects, but we don't know if Conroy can get them to play well together and we don't know if they won't also transfer out.

In the meantime, I'll be looking forward to Midnight Madness for the 1st time in 15 years.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby Show Me » Fri May 08, 2015 1:49 pm

JerseyWave wrote:We are not going miss any of the departing members of the 2014-15 squad. We are getting a huge upgrade in talent. You can watch film on these guys on youtube. The difference is night and day. It is now Conroy's job to mold the talent into a winning basketball team. It is also time to end the attrition since he will finally have competitive basketball players on the roster. There is going to be an air show in Fogleman that hasn't been seen since the Honeycutt days and I can't wait to watch it.

+1
I'm buying tickets again. Why would anybody give a rats a$$ about kids that quit Tulane. I hope they all fail. The same people that will miss them are the people that complained about them this past season. Only here can you find this type of comedy. When Tarrant comes to town I'm going to boo his a$$ like an LSU fan boos Saban.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby JerseyWave » Fri May 08, 2015 2:01 pm

Yes JJ, all the attrition is very alarming. Conroy's failures to sign competitive Division 1 talent resulted in him giving out scholarships just to fill in the roster. Stanley Roberts Jr is a perfect example. He had no offers and was set to got to prep school until Conroy threw him an offer last summer. Hopefully those days are over. By my count there are 12 scholarships committed to the 2015-16 team. If there is not a quality player available for the 13th scholarship then Conroy should save it for the next recruiting cycle. There's no reason to just give it out to fill a roster spot anymore. And again, if there's a mass exodus next spring it better be led by Conroy's exit!



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby winwave » Fri May 08, 2015 2:18 pm

Show Me wrote:
JerseyWave wrote:We are not going miss any of the departing members of the 2014-15 squad. We are getting a huge upgrade in talent. You can watch film on these guys on youtube. The difference is night and day. It is now Conroy's job to mold the talent into a winning basketball team. It is also time to end the attrition since he will finally have competitive basketball players on the roster. There is going to be an air show in Fogleman that hasn't been seen since the Honeycutt days and I can't wait to watch it.

+1
I'm buying tickets again. Why would anybody give a rats a$$ about kids that quit Tulane. I hope they all fail. The same people that will miss them are the people that complained about them this past season. Only here can you find this type of comedy. When Tarrant comes to town I'm going to boo his a$$ like an LSU fan boos Saban.


The people who are going to miss them did not complain about them. Only here can you find those type of falsehoods.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby jonathanjoseph » Fri May 08, 2015 7:21 pm

Since somehow people here speculate Henson will be no loss, I checked some of the advanced metrics to see what the data says.

- Henson would have had the 2nd highest returning PER behind Reynolds (who didn't face AAC competition) and Dabney
- Henson's TRB% would have been 3rd highest returning behind Reynolds and Osetkowski. Henson's TRB% last season ranked ahead of Ryan Smith and Trey Drye.
- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)
- Henson's WS would have been the 3rd highest returning player behind Dabney and Osetkowski

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/tulane/2015.html

Seems pretty clear that unless this recruiting class is much much better than the analysts estimate, the loss of Henson will be a net negative on Tulane basketball next season.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby tpstulane » Fri May 08, 2015 7:33 pm

jonathanjoseph wrote:Since somehow people here speculate Henson will be no loss, I checked some of the advanced metrics to see what the data says.

- Henson would have had the 2nd highest returning PER behind Reynolds (who didn't face AAC competition) and Dabney
- Henson's TRB% would have been 3rd highest returning behind Reynolds and Osetkowski. Henson's TRB% last season ranked ahead of Ryan Smith and Trey Drye.
- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)
- Henson's WS would have been the 3rd highest returning player behind Dabney and Osetkowski

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/tulane/2015.html

Seems pretty clear that unless this recruiting class is much much better than the analysts estimate, the loss of Henson will be a net negative on Tulane basketball next season.

Thanks. You've made my point. Those four guys that left were all terrible at TS%.479 and less. We'll miss Jay Hook though. Need to find a guy that can shoot the three.


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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby jonathanjoseph » Fri May 08, 2015 7:58 pm

tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:Since somehow people here speculate Henson will be no loss, I checked some of the advanced metrics to see what the data says.

- Henson would have had the 2nd highest returning PER behind Reynolds (who didn't face AAC competition) and Dabney
- Henson's TRB% would have been 3rd highest returning behind Reynolds and Osetkowski. Henson's TRB% last season ranked ahead of Ryan Smith and Trey Drye.
- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)
- Henson's WS would have been the 3rd highest returning player behind Dabney and Osetkowski

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/tulane/2015.html

Seems pretty clear that unless this recruiting class is much much better than the analysts estimate, the loss of Henson will be a net negative on Tulane basketball next season.

Thanks. You've made my point. Those four guys that left were all terrible at TS%.479 and less. We'll miss Jay Hook though. Need to find a guy that can shoot the three.


Or, when 5 of 10 guys in the rotation have horrendous TS% the problem might not be with the 5 players but rather the coach with an offense so bad that players are routinely taking bad shots.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby tpstulane » Fri May 08, 2015 8:03 pm

jonathanjoseph wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:Since somehow people here speculate Henson will be no loss, I checked some of the advanced metrics to see what the data says.

- Henson would have had the 2nd highest returning PER behind Reynolds (who didn't face AAC competition) and Dabney
- Henson's TRB% would have been 3rd highest returning behind Reynolds and Osetkowski. Henson's TRB% last season ranked ahead of Ryan Smith and Trey Drye.
- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)
- Henson's WS would have been the 3rd highest returning player behind Dabney and Osetkowski

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/tulane/2015.html

Seems pretty clear that unless this recruiting class is much much better than the analysts estimate, the loss of Henson will be a net negative on Tulane basketball next season.

Thanks. You've made my point. Those four guys that left were all terrible at TS%.479 and less. We'll miss Jay Hook though. Need to find a guy that can shoot the three.


Or, when 5 of 10 guys in the rotation have horrendous TS% the problem might not be with the 5 players but rather the coach with an offense so bad that players are routinely taking bad shots.

They did better against CUSA competition. They are not up to the talent the AAC has. It's that simple. You get a good idea on the coaching this season. With a roster full of freshman it's going to take good coaching to find combos that work best. That's going to be the test next season.


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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby jonathanjoseph » Fri May 08, 2015 8:12 pm

[video][/video]
tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:Since somehow people here speculate Henson will be no loss, I checked some of the advanced metrics to see what the data says.

- Henson would have had the 2nd highest returning PER behind Reynolds (who didn't face AAC competition) and Dabney
- Henson's TRB% would have been 3rd highest returning behind Reynolds and Osetkowski. Henson's TRB% last season ranked ahead of Ryan Smith and Trey Drye.
- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)
- Henson's WS would have been the 3rd highest returning player behind Dabney and Osetkowski

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/tulane/2015.html

Seems pretty clear that unless this recruiting class is much much better than the analysts estimate, the loss of Henson will be a net negative on Tulane basketball next season.

Thanks. You've made my point. Those four guys that left were all terrible at TS%.479 and less. We'll miss Jay Hook though. Need to find a guy that can shoot the three.


Or, when 5 of 10 guys in the rotation have horrendous TS% the problem might not be with the 5 players but rather the coach with an offense so bad that players are routinely taking bad shots.

They did better against CUSA competition. They are not up to the talent the AAC has. It's that simple. You get a good idea on the coaching this season. With a roster full of freshman it's going to take good coaching to find combos that work best. That's going to be the test next season.


Sure, but those things aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, the players looked and performed better against lesser competition but that does not preclude there from also being real problems with the offense that make it unnecessarily hard on players to get good shots.

Athleticism and talent was a problem. X's and O's are also a problem. If we have more talent and athleticism but they are consistently taking bad shots late in the shot clock then the results will be much the same.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby puffy » Fri May 08, 2015 10:21 pm

jonathanjoseph wrote:[video][/video]
tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:Since somehow people here speculate Henson will be no loss, I checked some of the advanced metrics to see what the data says.

- Henson would have had the 2nd highest returning PER behind Reynolds (who didn't face AAC competition) and Dabney
- Henson's TRB% would have been 3rd highest returning behind Reynolds and Osetkowski. Henson's TRB% last season ranked ahead of Ryan Smith and Trey Drye.
- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)
- Henson's WS would have been the 3rd highest returning player behind Dabney and Osetkowski

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/tulane/2015.html

Seems pretty clear that unless this recruiting class is much much better than the analysts estimate, the loss of Henson will be a net negative on Tulane basketball next season.

Thanks. You've made my point. Those four guys that left were all terrible at TS%.479 and less. We'll miss Jay Hook though. Need to find a guy that can shoot the three.


Or, when 5 of 10 guys in the rotation have horrendous TS% the problem might not be with the 5 players but rather the coach with an offense so bad that players are routinely taking bad shots.

They did better against CUSA competition. They are not up to the talent the AAC has. It's that simple. You get a good idea on the coaching this season. With a roster full of freshman it's going to take good coaching to find combos that work best. That's going to be the test next season.


Sure, but those things aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, the players looked and performed better against lesser competition but that does not preclude there from also being real problems with the offense that make it unnecessarily hard on players to get good shots.

Athleticism and talent was a problem. X's and O's are also a problem. If we have more talent and athleticism but they are consistently taking bad shots late in the shot clock then the results will be much the same.


It's not entirely accurate to suggest the primary reason why the offense struggled was because of the system, just as it's not entirely accurate to say a player underperformed because he simply isn't an AAC level player. It's probably somewhere inbetween. We can all criticize the offense, but I highly doubt any coach is willingly playing a system where a forced and defended shot with the clock running to zero is the desired result of each play.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby jonathanjoseph » Fri May 08, 2015 11:23 pm

puffy wrote:It's not entirely accurate to suggest the primary reason why the offense struggled was because of the system, just as it's not entirely accurate to say a player underperformed because he simply isn't an AAC level player. It's probably somewhere inbetween. We can all criticize the offense, but I highly doubt any coach is willingly playing a system where a forced and defended shot with the clock running to zero is the desired result of each play.


I agree. But 6 years of watching Conroy now have shown me evidence otherwise. I have no idea what the incoming recruits mean when they say they are excited about playing "uptempo" because we haven't seen anything like that out of Conroy so far.

The offensive numbers make it pretty clear that there are problems. Some is talent, some is system, but the bottom line is that there are problems despite this sea change in recruiting.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby tpstulane » Fri May 08, 2015 11:38 pm

jonathanjoseph wrote:
puffy wrote:It's not entirely accurate to suggest the primary reason why the offense struggled was because of the system, just as it's not entirely accurate to say a player underperformed because he simply isn't an AAC level player. It's probably somewhere inbetween. We can all criticize the offense, but I highly doubt any coach is willingly playing a system where a forced and defended shot with the clock running to zero is the desired result of each play.


I agree. But 6 years of watching Conroy now have shown me evidence otherwise. I have no idea what the incoming recruits mean when they say they are excited about playing "uptempo" because we haven't seen anything like that out of Conroy so far.

The offensive numbers make it pretty clear that there are problems. Some is talent, some is system, but the bottom line is that there are problems despite this sea change in recruiting.

We haven't seen it because we didn't have the talent to run it. We slowed games down to keep them close. You'll see a complete different style this season. I sat at court side for many home games. It's completely different than watching it on TV like you do. You can't appreciate how wide the talent gap was from the better AAC teams.
Conroy is benefiting from better assistants, a better league and TV appearances. I've said that should happen and now is has. Leaving CUSA has really helped more than anything. We'll finally out recruit Tim Floyd because he's stuck in CUSA.


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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby jonathanjoseph » Sat May 09, 2015 11:47 am

tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:
puffy wrote:It's not entirely accurate to suggest the primary reason why the offense struggled was because of the system, just as it's not entirely accurate to say a player underperformed because he simply isn't an AAC level player. It's probably somewhere inbetween. We can all criticize the offense, but I highly doubt any coach is willingly playing a system where a forced and defended shot with the clock running to zero is the desired result of each play.


I agree. But 6 years of watching Conroy now have shown me evidence otherwise. I have no idea what the incoming recruits mean when they say they are excited about playing "uptempo" because we haven't seen anything like that out of Conroy so far.

The offensive numbers make it pretty clear that there are problems. Some is talent, some is system, but the bottom line is that there are problems despite this sea change in recruiting.

We haven't seen it because we didn't have the talent to run it. We slowed games down to keep them close. You'll see a complete different style this season. I sat at court side for many home games. It's completely different than watching it on TV like you do. You can't appreciate how wide the talent gap was from the better AAC teams.
Conroy is benefiting from better assistants, a better league and TV appearances. I've said that should happen and now is has. Leaving CUSA has really helped more than anything. We'll finally out recruit Tim Floyd because he's stuck in CUSA.


Sorry but that's not how basketball coaching works. You can clearly separate the evaluation of the talent from the execution of a coherent offensive system and game plan. The offense was a disorganized mess that didn't even show any semblence of a philosophy. It's been obvious to any remotely informed observer and every single color analyst who covered a Tulane game for a TV broadcast mentioned as much on the air. A shockingly high number of possessions ended in desperation shots at the end of the shot clock.

The offensive coaching would have received a letter grade of "F", perhaps "D-" if we're being generous. That is irrespective of the talent level.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby tpstulane » Sat May 09, 2015 3:13 pm

jonathanjoseph wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:
puffy wrote:It's not entirely accurate to suggest the primary reason why the offense struggled was because of the system, just as it's not entirely accurate to say a player underperformed because he simply isn't an AAC level player. It's probably somewhere inbetween. We can all criticize the offense, but I highly doubt any coach is willingly playing a system where a forced and defended shot with the clock running to zero is the desired result of each play.


I agree. But 6 years of watching Conroy now have shown me evidence otherwise. I have no idea what the incoming recruits mean when they say they are excited about playing "uptempo" because we haven't seen anything like that out of Conroy so far.

The offensive numbers make it pretty clear that there are problems. Some is talent, some is system, but the bottom line is that there are problems despite this sea change in recruiting.

We haven't seen it because we didn't have the talent to run it. We slowed games down to keep them close. You'll see a complete different style this season. I sat at court side for many home games. It's completely different than watching it on TV like you do. You can't appreciate how wide the talent gap was from the better AAC teams.
Conroy is benefiting from better assistants, a better league and TV appearances. I've said that should happen and now is has. Leaving CUSA has really helped more than anything. We'll finally out recruit Tim Floyd because he's stuck in CUSA.


Sorry but that's not how basketball coaching works. You can clearly separate the evaluation of the talent from the execution of a coherent offensive system and game plan. The offense was a disorganized mess that didn't even show any semblence of a philosophy. It's been obvious to any remotely informed observer and every single color analyst who covered a Tulane game for a TV broadcast mentioned as much on the air.

Yea. Including the guys that broadcast offsite from the studio. Prior to the season many people picked us to finish last and win only a couple of AAC games. I picked us to win 14 to 15 games and that's what we did. We did as expected. Next season I'm expecting a better result. The talent has been raised.


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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby DrBox » Sat May 09, 2015 11:11 pm

jonathanjoseph wrote:- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)

So to sum this up, the 4 players who left had the 4 lowest True Shooting percentages on the team.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby tpstulane » Sat May 09, 2015 11:15 pm

DrBox wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)

So to sum this up, the 4 players who left had the 4 lowest True Shooting percentages on the team.

Exactly. He proved my point very well.
CUSA type talent at best.


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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby jonathanjoseph » Sat May 09, 2015 11:34 pm

tpstulane wrote:
DrBox wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:- Henson's TS% was .479, terrible, but was still higher than Stark, Pinckney and Herlihy, which means only five regular rotation players had a higher TS% than Henson (meaning the poor shooting was team wide and thus partly the fault of the offense)

So to sum this up, the 4 players who left had the 4 lowest True Shooting percentages on the team.

Exactly. He proved my point very well.
CUSA type talent at best.

I don't believe that proves your point whatsoever, or that your point is relevant, so agree to disagree.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby sader24 » Sun May 10, 2015 5:39 am

As someone who has been around alot of basketball in my life, generally speaking you run offensively what your talent dictates. If you don't have guys that consistently get to the rim and create their own shots of course you are going to have to run the type of stuff Conroy ran. If you have better talent naturally you'll play faster and more open with more offensive freedom.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby tpstulane » Sun May 10, 2015 6:54 am

sader24 wrote:As someone who has been around alot of basketball in my life, generally speaking you run offensively what your talent dictates. If you don't have guys that consistently get to the rim and create their own shots of course you are going to have to run the type of stuff Conroy ran. If you have better talent naturally you'll play faster and more open with more offensive freedom.

This.


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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby Forever TU » Sun May 10, 2015 8:12 am

I think we can all appreciate the efforts of those that are no longer on the team. I for one do hope those guys find success elsewhere.

The biggest obstacle in practice is going to be molding this new talent into a TEAM. These guys are used to being stars and now they will need to compliment each other.

I'll tell you this: I've never seen a coach outside of RJ work as hard or want to win as badly as coach Conroy.

Also though, there are no excuses left. We've got the talent, facilities and staff.

I like what a lot of the new kids said in various ways on Twitter - that they wanted to rep their city. Let's go get it!



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby Robert1969 » Sun May 10, 2015 8:16 am

All this sturm und drang over Peyton Henson? Seriously? We have one od the best recruiting/transfer classes that Tulane has ever had in basketball, and we are whinging over losing a guy who wouldn't bench warm for most programs. Peyton Henson wants more playing time? What did he do this year that would make anyone think he was worthy of more playing time? Look at what we have coming in and answer this question, "where does Peyton Henson fit in with these guys?"

I wish Peyton Henson luck. But I am hardly upset about his departure.



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby Robert1969 » Sun May 10, 2015 8:27 am

What we've got coming in:

Melvin Frazier
Blake Paul
Kain Harris
Von Julien
Maxwell Starwood
Taron Oliver
Kipper Nichols

Transfers
Malik Morgan
Jenard Jarreau

Keeping:

Louis Dabney
Dylan Osetkowski
Cameron Reynolds
Kajon Mack

Where does Peyton Henson fit on this roster? And if you think he does, how the heck is he improving his playing time?



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby mbawavefan12 » Sun May 10, 2015 8:39 am

Robert1969 wrote:What we've got coming in:

Melvin Frazier
Blake Paul
Kain Harris
Von Julien
Maxwell Starwood
Taron Oliver
Kipper Nichols

Transfers
Malik Morgan
Jenard Jarreau

Keeping:

Louis Dabney
Dylan Osetkowski
Cameron Reynolds
Kajon Mack

Where does Peyton Henson fit on this roster? And if you think he does, how the heck is he improving his playing time?


Where's Smith?



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Re: Bye Bye Payton Henson

Postby RobertM320 » Sun May 10, 2015 8:41 am

Just on a side note... CJ's been working the local schools hard for the last few years. Any chance some of this is guys who went to HS with some of the previous football recruits, so the concept of staying home and repping NOLA is rubbing off on basketball players? I have no idea, just wondering.


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