John English Case never decided by NCAA

[dennis72]

Anyone of you remember how Tulane beat 2nd ranked Florida State and it was forfeited

because of John English being declared ineligible. Well according to the lawyer that presented

the case to the NCAA counsel and then the committee ,English was eligible according to the

then rules of the NCAA. This is what happened. English originally went to Michigan State. He

and then went to Iowa State because his didn't think he would play soon enough. When

Iowa State changed coaches he decided to go to Tulane where his dad coached. But he

knew that he would first have to go to a junior college to be eligible. So he went to Delgado

Junior college and graduated. The one year wait was base on the first division one school

that you attended not the second if you graduated from a junior college. English did this so

he was eligible. The lawyer presented this argument and the NCAA didn't know what to do.

So first it went before the NCAA counsel then the governing committee. Neither group could

decide. They were claiming that it wasn't the intent of the rule but the rule had them in a

bind. But they couldn't get around the rule as written. However the NCAA is an

unconstitutional organization and can do what they want so they table it until after the

season forcing English to take it to a real court or never play the rest of his last year of

eligibility.Tulane and their lawyer couldn't get involved or they would be subject to

sanctions beyond the forfeit of games. So English got some bad lawyers not presenting the

same argument as the Tulane lawyer. By then the NCAA had their million dollars lawyers in

place. So the judge ruled in the NCAA's favor. After the case the judge saw Tulane lawyer.

Tulane's lawyer was called as a possible witness by both parties but no one called him.

Anyway the judge asked Tulane's lawyer what was really going on. The lawyer explain the

original argument and the judge told him that he would have ruled in English's favor if he

would have heard that argument. By the way the lawyer I talked with said that the NCAA

never made an official ruling on English case. It's time to make the NCAA a constitutional

organization. When money is involved the have-nots ,such as Tulane, need a legal voice.We

didn't have a voice with the BCS and it appears that we never had a voice with the NCAA.

[jmjclu]

My memory is different.
I think English went to a junior college after his year at Mich State , and then went to a different junior college after his year at Iowa State.
The NCAA ruling was based on bad wording in the rules because no one had anticipated a player attending three universities and attending jr colleges between univ one and two , and then between universities two and three.
BTW, I think Lionel Washington interecepted a pass that helped cement the win that day.
In addition , the starting QB was supposed to be Bubba Brister who shortly thereafter left Tulane and went to LaTech , before he went to the NFL and had a great history.
If my facts are wrong , please correct me.

[greenphantom]

Brister went to ULM (Northeast La at the time), not La Tech.

[dennis72]

You right I forgot about that he did go to a junior college after Michigan State . I just heard

it from the lawyer last night. I had to get him to repeat it just to understand the situation.

He also said that Wally English didn't want to get rid of Brister but Brister demanded that

either he start or he leaves. He said English felt he couldn't have a player put him on the

spot but also that English didn't think he would leave. I think Brister originally went to

Alabama or some other SEC school. I was told at the time that Brister's father had a lot to

do with him leaving the SEC school and Tulane. I was told he was a controlling parent. Of

course I heard this while Brister was playing for Tulane and I didn't really think nothing of it.

But Brister was a good player. I just thought while he was at Tulane he wasn't use to the

system enough to show his full potential. Too bad about that. The point of the story is that

the rules are the rules. Don't penalize someone because you have bad rules. I dealt with

this type of thing for 29 years as an inspector in the Space Industry. When an engineer did

not state something clearly I got them to change it or I would make them live with their

drawing or wording. I didn't accept, you know what I mean. Many times I was called an

idiot by engineers whether directly or indirectly. But they changed their drawings or wording

when they were wrong. If I would have assumed what they meant then I would have been

the first one to pay the price for assuming what they meant. An engineer would have been

the first one to deny it. This is why whether we have a NCAA rule or a NASA drawing it

needs to be stated clearly. And why should Tulane pay for their bad wording.

[JerseyWave]

I think Brister played with Chris Scelfo at NE La.

[jmjclu]

Brister played professional baseball and the SEC would not allow anyone who played professionlly in one sport to participate in any sport.
He chose Tulane because there was no restriction.
Wally English benched Brister to pkay his son.
The then AD was Hindman Wall who had played football at Auburn. Because of this fiasco he resigned and returned to Auburn as an assistant AD.

[tpstulane]

Brister played professional baseball and the SEC would not allow anyone who played professionlly in one sport to participate in any sport.
He chose Tulane because there was no restriction.
Wally English benched Brister to pkay his son.
The then AD was Hindman Wall who had played football at Auburn. Because of this fiasco he resigned and returned to Auburn as an assistant AD.

Hindman Wall had to resign because of the 1985 basketball point shaving scandal.

[swampnik]

How in the world did TU beat the no. 2 team that day in Florida anyway?? QB English was that good? Our defense was that tough?
This game was one that always need explaining in my mind; not like the Miami game (where we flat out won cause of the 5th down given the Canes).
Can anyone expand on the actual game day situations and scoring?

[golfnut69]

swampnik... If I recall the FSU game was in the dome..Bob Davie was the DC......

[OGSB]

How in the world did TU beat the no. 2 team that day in Florida anyway?? QB English was that good? Our defense was that tough?
This game was one that always need explaining in my mind; not like the Miami game (where we flat out won cause of the 5th down given the Canes).
Can anyone expand on the actual game day situations and scoring?

It was in the Dome and FSU was slightly overranked. They finished 7-5 (8-4 with the forfeit).

[billow]

It was an afternoon game in the dome. Florida State was ranked 8th in the country at the time. Darryl Tipton, David Jackson, Clinton Wenzel, Vic Perez along with Bernell Dent anchored the defense. Florida State had horrible special teams that year. Trey Songy ran an interception back 99 yards and Curt Baham had a punt return of 75 or so yards for a TD. It was Elton Veals coming out party that afternoon. He had a TD run of about 40 yards in the game. Our defense that year played pretty consistant. Our offense was so inconsistent, with English, Brister and don't forget Wade Elmore. QB's could not find any flow in our Offense because of the rotation between the three. English wanted to play his son because he felt he knew offense better than anyone. We, also beat Ole Miss that year, when the lights went out in the dome for a few minutes. That's another story though.

[dennis72]

1983 Schedule and GAME DAY

09/03 EAST CAROLINA W 47-46 8-3

09/10 LOUISIANA STATE W 40-35 4-7

09/17 TULANE Forfeit, 2/3/86, score was 28-34 Tulane W 1- 0 4-7

10/01 AUBURN L 24-27 11-1

10/08 PITTSBURGH L 16-17 8-3-1

10/15 CINCINNATI W 43-17 4-6-1

10/20 LOUISVILLE W 51- 7 3-8

10/29 ARIZONA STATE W 29-26 6-4-1

11/05 SOUTH CAROLINA W 45-30 5-6

11/12 MIAMI L 16-17 11-1

12/03 FLORIDA L 14-53 9-2-1

12/30 NORTH CAROLINA Peach Bowl, Atlanta, Ga W 28- 3 8-4
Overall Home Away Neutral
------------------------------------------------
FSU RECORD IS 8- 4 4-1 3-3 1-0
AGAINST TOP 25 1- 3 0-1 1-2 0-0


This is Florida State Record in 1983. I thought they were No 2 but reviewing their score

against East Carolina and LSU I could see why they might be only No 8. Now their loses

were against good team as the opponent record are shown on the right. Except for the

Florida lost all were close games. When we played and beat Florida State it seemed like

a great win. Considering that we were 4-7 I think it was. English was not a good head

coach but his players had talent. They bent but did not break in that game.

[ajcalhoun]

He chose Tulane because there was no restriction.

Yeah, that, and forty grand in a shoebox.

[HoustonWave]

How in the world did TU beat the no. 2 team that day in Florida anyway?? QB English was that good? Our defense was that tough?
This game was one that always need explaining in my mind; not like the Miami game (where we flat out won cause of the 5th down given the Canes).
Can anyone expand on the actual game day situations and scoring?

The game was at the Superdome. The reason we won was that we had some very good players on that team. From the mid 70's through the mid 80's Tulane had a lot of talent on many of those teams, and we often played close games against many nationally recognized teams. That particular game was close throughout, and it was the 95 yd interception for a TD (I guess Washington did it) that really broke FSU's back.

[tpstulane]

How in the world did TU beat the no. 2 team that day in Florida anyway?? QB English was that good? Our defense was that tough?
This game was one that always need explaining in my mind; not like the Miami game (where we flat out won cause of the 5th down given the Canes).
Can anyone expand on the actual game day situations and scoring?

The game was at the Superdome. The reason we won was that we had some very good players on that team. From the mid 70's through the mid 80's Tulane had a lot of talent on many of those teams, and we often played close games against many nationally recognized teams. That particular game was close throughout, and it was the 95 yd interception for a TD (I guess Washington did it) that really broke FSU's back.

+1
Talent! I was going to post the same thing Houston.

[billow]

It was Treg Songy who returned the interception against Fla. State. I mentioned Trey early in the topic but his first name was Treg. Lionel graduated or completed his eligibility in the fall of 82.

[DfromCT]

I was at the game, section 614....and it was very much an Elton Veals coming out party as someone else mentioned. He had a huge day, and the long INT return was, if memory serves correctly, the big break in the fourth quarter that allowed Tulane to grab a victory when it looked like FSU was about to go up by two scores.

My memory of "Bubby" Brister was that his father complained first to Hindman Wall, then somehow got an audience with Eamon Kelly, who told him he wasn't about to order the head coach to start Bubby. A couple of days later, Bubby's daddy took Bubby and his ball and left for UL-M. Bubby had a long career mostly holding the clip board in the NFL, but did have a few starts as well. John English clearly had the better understanding of his father's offense, and the team moved the ball under his leadership much better than they did for Bubby.