Post season analysis

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Jaxwave
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:14 am

Just heard some concerning news. A family member married into a family from Statesboro, Ga. home to Ga. Southern. As you may know they fired their coach and are now looking. The family members are close to the athletic program and say they don't know whether Ga. Southern will go this way, but a number of the Tulane coaches have expressed an interest in returning there under the Tulane OC, if he gets the job. Word from them is the Tulane assistants are not happy based on the fact that they have to live so far (an hour) from campus to get into family friendly neighborhoods commensurate with their pay, based on the cost of living in the city, along with the academic challenges in recruiting at Tulane. You can imagine both of those would be major adjustments for coaches moving from a rural community and a school like G Southern.

Now I don't know if it's true or that we even care to lose some of them, but if salaries for assistant coaches is an issue, it would be another indication of the lack of commitment of the administration.


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Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:38 am

Jaxwave wrote:Just heard some concerning news. A family member married into a family from Statesboro, Ga. home to Ga. Southern. As you may know they fired their coach and are now looking. The family members are close to the athletic program and say they don't know whether Ga. Southern will go this way, but a number of the Tulane coaches have expressed an interest in returning there under the Tulane OC, if he gets the job. Word from them is the Tulane assistants are not happy based on the fact that they have to live so far (an hour) from campus to get into family friendly neighborhoods commensurate with their pay, based on the cost of living in the city, along with the academic challenges in recruiting at Tulane. You can imagine both of those would be major adjustments for coaches moving from a rural community and a school like G Southern.

Now I don't know if it's true or that we even care to lose some of them, but if salaries for assistant coaches is an issue, it would be another indication of the lack of commitment of the administration.

I can't imagine Ga. Southern paying assistants as much as we do. I may be wrong, but since Troy Dannen has been here we lured WF away and his loyal assistants came with him (as they have in the past). Also, Dunleavy didn't come cheap either so TD obviously hasn't been told "No" by President Fitts. If more money is needed to keep an assistant that WF wants, then I'd bet he gets the money.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:55 am

Safe housing zoned to good schools is very expensive inside the vast majority of large cities located inside of MSA's with total populations above 1M.

If that rumor is true, the issue isn't money - they just want to live in a college town environment.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:05 pm

netshorty wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
netshorty wrote:
tpstulane wrote:Up and down year. I said 5-7 but thought we’d beat FIU and Cincy. We improved slightly from last year but that was expected (mainly because of the QB position). Overall I’d give the staff a C. We didn’t overachieve or underachieve based on what I thought. Banks was a difference maker. Without him we’d have 3 wins. Special teams was disappointing. Not having a reliable FG kicker probably cost us two more wins. The defense at times was great and at times not so great.
+1 Agree with your take here. C is a fair grade in my opinion. Just after homecoming he was an F but 2 solid games to end got him a passing grade. In reality with how the season started 3-2 and having FIU, Cincy & ECU on the schedule, 6-6 should have been a passing grade. UH win should have propelled WF to a solid A.

The important point is that I think 90%+ of us agree that WF is a better coach than CJ, Toledo, and the list goes on (sans Bowden). But all of those coaches failed. When we say "CJ's team would have lost by several touchdowns" or "no way a Toledo team makes it that close" the obvious reaction is "no sh!t". I think this is one thing that divides us in our views of progress. If we set the bar so low then small improvement could still equate to failing. Don't get me wrong, improvement is great. But just like the Physics class I took as a freshman, I showed up late to my first exam and walked away with a 20%, then showed up on time to the next exam and got a 35%. Nearly a 100% improvement but still not even close to passing.

I like WF and I get frustrated with WF. I have no idea what the ceiling is with him as a coach. There are signs (and you can point to his coaching history) that he can continue to push us toward our goals of competing for a conference championship and bowl eligibility each year. This is the trust the process view. And yet there are signs that we may be close to hitting the ceiling with him already based on the on-the-field performances over the last two seasons. What many of us fear as that we have a history of hanging with a coach too long, waiting for the process to finish, and yet the process resulted in a set-back instead of an advancement. I get that there's a new sheriff in town. Again, I'm not saying WF can or cannot get us to the promised land. I'm saying he's just been OK the first two years, not good or great, but not bad or terrible. And maybe I should be happy with OK because it's better than we've had.
UCF hired Danny White as AD he hired Scott Frost who has UCF at 11-0 in year two. Prior to Frost UCF was 0-12

Tulane hired Troy Dannen as AD he hired Willie Fritz who has Tulane at 5-7 in year two. Prior to Fritz Tulane was 3-9.
Just saying the improvement between the two are night and day.
Well crap TPS, you just opened up a throw-down on how UCF had the players already in place just needed a coach while Tulane needed both. :D
Yes of course. :lol:
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tpstulane
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 pm

MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
They went 0-12 with those same standards.
CJ signed every player he wanted. Fritz has never said we can’t compete because of admissions.
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GreenPuddleSplash
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:08 pm

tpstulane wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
They went 0-12 with those same standards.
Well, when you also have the largest student body population to pull from, you're probably going to be sitting in a pretty good position especially when your state is a hot bed for football recruits.
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tpstulane
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:10 pm

GreenPuddleSplash wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
They went 0-12 with those same standards.
Well, when you also have the largest student body population to pull from, you're probably going to be sitting in a pretty good position especially when your state is a hot bed for football recruits.
That’s fair but they had the same student pop to pull from at 0-12. Hotbed yes but look at the schools you’re competing against. Fla, FSU, MIA, USF, FIU, FAU, Tampa etc.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:52 pm

tpstulane wrote:
GreenPuddleSplash wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
They went 0-12 with those same standards.
Well, when you also have the largest student body population to pull from, you're probably going to be sitting in a pretty good position especially when your state is a hot bed for football recruits.
That’s fair but they had the same student pop to pull from at 0-12. Hotbed yes but look at the schools you’re competing against. Fla, FSU, MIA, USF, FIU, FAU, Tampa etc.
Don't discount the fact that the 0-12 team was winless in large part due to George O'Leary quitting on the job. Yes, UCF might not have the admissions standards Tulane has, but it's not a bad school. I'd take it over a diploma from a lot of the SEC schools.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:02 pm

Jaxwave wrote:Just heard some concerning news. A family member married into a family from Statesboro, Ga. home to Ga. Southern. As you may know they fired their coach and are now looking. The family members are close to the athletic program and say they don't know whether Ga. Southern will go this way, but a number of the Tulane coaches have expressed an interest in returning there under the Tulane OC, if he gets the job. Word from them is the Tulane assistants are not happy based on the fact that they have to live so far (an hour) from campus to get into family friendly neighborhoods commensurate with their pay, based on the cost of living in the city, along with the academic challenges in recruiting at Tulane. You can imagine both of those would be major adjustments for coaches moving from a rural community and a school like G Southern.

Now I don't know if it's true or that we even care to lose some of them, but if salaries for assistant coaches is an issue, it would be another indication of the lack of commitment of the administration.
Which assistant Coach do you deem irreplaceable?
Only 5 assistants came with Fritz from Georgia Southern so either way the whole staff isn't going to turn over if Tulane's OC gets the job. The assistants going back to Georgia Southern is a downward career move. I'm not buying this "they have to live an hour away from campus" to live in family friendly neighborhoods. An hour away from New Orleans puts you in the middle of nowhere.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:31 pm

netshorty wrote:
Well crap TPS, you just opened up a throw-down on how UCF had the players already in place just needed a coach while Tulane needed both. :D
Actually, I think we've had this discussion previously. UCF's 0-12 was an outlier due to O'Leary leaving. The talent was there.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:59 pm

RobertM320 wrote:
netshorty wrote:
Well crap TPS, you just opened up a throw-down on how UCF had the players already in place just needed a coach while Tulane needed both. :D
Actually, I think we've had this discussion previously. UCF's 0-12 was an outlier due to O'Leary leaving. The talent was there.
Yep, thus the reason for my "well crap"... Knew it would spark a rehash of those opinions...
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:00 pm

MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
The idea that admissions standards are what prevents Tulane from winning is an absurd myth that failing coaches trot out in year 3 or 4. Tulane has the same NCAA MINIMUM standards that everyone else in college football uses and has for years now. Is it true that we tend to recruit a higher level of student-athlete because a) those are who it is easiest to market our selling points to and b) we are more likely to keep them on the field for four years? Sure. But that’s more of a self-selection thing on the part of players and coaches, not a limitation put in place by the university.

If you think we have “higher standards” in recruiting than the NCAA minimums, you should be able to point out what that standard is, right? What is it?
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:13 pm

Overall I give the season a C+.

The prevailing thought was that we'd finish 5-7. We finished 5-7. That to me is a C.

The reason I give a + is for the win over Houston. That team in a "down year" still only lost 4 games. Despite their coaching woes the roster is full of talent and those kids don't like to lose. That was a good win.

To be honest I don't really know what to make of this program. It "feels" like we're building towards something. It "feels" like Fritz is a real, winning football coach. But at the same time we're still sitting here in November without a bowl game.

On the one hand we beat Army, we beat Houston, we blew out Tulsa. Who would've expected that? We were 9 points away from 8-4. We were 16 points and a game against FIU from 10-2. It felt like we could've been very close to an amazing season.

On the other hand we were 17 points away from ending up 2-9. That "good loss" to Navy ended up being a "pretty ok loss". That huge corner turning win over Tulsa led us running head first into a brick wall. We lost to an alright FIU team and a terrible Cincy team. It took overtime to beat ECU and we scored fewer points than a FCS team.

That last play against SMU was the perfect way to describe this season and our program. We're so close. We feel like we're about to make it. Everything is falling into place. And then with 9 seconds left we only get one play off and come up short. We can bellyache and talk up moral victories and all that but at the end of the day we lost more than we won. At the end of the day no body other than Tulane fans care about "how" you lost, they just care that you lost. This season was a loss.

Is there any reason to believe next year will be any different? On the one hand yes. The recruiting is improving. The QB was vastly improved. I think overall the mental mistakes are no longer egregious. But the blown opportunities are still there. Couldn't close out the W @Navy, layed the egg at FIU, came out asleep against USF, Cincy and SMU debacles.

I'm not sure what to call it. Are we building and getting closer? Or are blowing our chances and staying as irrelevant as ever? I think some of both. In Fritz I'll continue to trust, for the most part.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:14 pm

OUG wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
The idea that admissions standards are what prevents Tulane from winning is an absurd myth that failing coaches trot out in year 3 or 4. Tulane has the same NCAA MINIMUM standards that everyone else in college football uses and has for years now. Is it true that we tend to recruit a higher level of student-athlete because a) those are who it is easiest to market our selling points to and b) we are more likely to keep them on the field for four years? Sure. But that’s more of a self-selection thing on the part of players and coaches, not a limitation put in place by the university.

If you think we have “higher standards” in recruiting than the NCAA minimums, you should be able to point out what that standard is, right? What is it?
Yep. Why can Stanford and Northwestern and hell even Vandy/Tulsa compete a higher level than Tulane? Excuses, excuses, excuses.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:22 pm

MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
This is as factual a statement as can be made. UCF can literally bring in "whatever" meets their needs on the football field and know that academics and culture will not be a problem.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:55 pm

Ruski wrote:
OUG wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
The idea that admissions standards are what prevents Tulane from winning is an absurd myth that failing coaches trot out in year 3 or 4. Tulane has the same NCAA MINIMUM standards that everyone else in college football uses and has for years now. Is it true that we tend to recruit a higher level of student-athlete because a) those are who it is easiest to market our selling points to and b) we are more likely to keep them on the field for four years? Sure. But that’s more of a self-selection thing on the part of players and coaches, not a limitation put in place by the university.

If you think we have “higher standards” in recruiting than the NCAA minimums, you should be able to point out what that standard is, right? What is it?
Yep. Why can Stanford and Northwestern and hell even Vandy/Tulsa compete a higher level than Tulane? Excuses, excuses, excuses.
I believe we now have the same NCAA minimum standards for high school athletes as everyone else, but only since WF & TD arrived on the scene. What I am not convinced of is that our JC transfer standards have changed. They made a slight change, letting WF recruit JC Players, but only the ones who were academically qualified coming out of high school. Well that eliminated 80% of the good players in the JC pool.......WF said there are not many good JC players who were academically qualified coming out of high school. If they were qualified and good athletes they would have signed with 4 yr college.

Until we get this JC issue on equal terms with the other colleges we compete against, as well as clear ups the issue of JC transferable math hours, we are not totally committed to big time athletic program. We appear headed in that direction, but I don't understand why we can't just get it done now.....We need 3 JC OL, and
3 JC DL in this class. As for the schools you mentioned, you think someone from Tulane would explore what they are doing to be so successful.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:56 pm

OUG wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
The idea that admissions standards are what prevents Tulane from winning is an absurd myth that failing coaches trot out in year 3 or 4. Tulane has the same NCAA MINIMUM standards that everyone else in college football uses and has for years now. Is it true that we tend to recruit a higher level of student-athlete because a) those are who it is easiest to market our selling points to and b) we are more likely to keep them on the field for four years? Sure. But that’s more of a self-selection thing on the part of players and coaches, not a limitation put in place by the university.

If you think we have “higher standards” in recruiting than the NCAA minimums, you should be able to point out what that standard is, right? What is it?
+1
CJ got every kid in he wanted. Grades were never an issue. At least Tulane has corrected this from years past.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:01 pm

anEngineer wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
This is as factual a statement as can be made. UCF can literally bring in "whatever" meets their needs on the football field and know that academics and culture will not be a problem.
If we are at the minimum like everyone else (we operate on a level playing field), how did Memphis bring in the younger Wilson when he wasn't eligible at Tulane. That was the story as I remember it a couple of years back, right? I really don't know, just looking for more information....
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Wavetrader wrote:
anEngineer wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
This is as factual a statement as can be made. UCF can literally bring in "whatever" meets their needs on the football field and know that academics and culture will not be a problem.
If we are at the minimum like everyone else (we operate on a level playing field), how did Memphis bring in the younger Wilson when he wasn't eligible at Tulane. That was the story as I remember it a couple of years back, right? I really don't know, just looking for more information....
http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s ... 699724001/
He wasn’t D1 eligible anywhere until this:
Memphis didn’t become a possibility until Wilson learned that taking another high school class would boost his grade-point average and make him Division I eligible. At that point, Wilson said, Tigers wide receivers coach David Johnson, who had recruited him as an assistant at Tulane, helped bring the defensive lineman aboard midway through preseason camp.
“When he had the opportunity to explore other options for his education, he elected to come up and take a look at Memphis. I’ll tell you, we’re extremely glad that he did,” Memphis coach Mike Norvell said. “What impressed me so much is he had never played with his hand in the grass. To come in and play as many snaps as he did last year, never playing on the interior, and to have the impact he did, that was pretty remarkable.”
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:01 pm

posse wrote:
Ruski wrote:
OUG wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
The idea that admissions standards are what prevents Tulane from winning is an absurd myth that failing coaches trot out in year 3 or 4. Tulane has the same NCAA MINIMUM standards that everyone else in college football uses and has for years now. Is it true that we tend to recruit a higher level of student-athlete because a) those are who it is easiest to market our selling points to and b) we are more likely to keep them on the field for four years? Sure. But that’s more of a self-selection thing on the part of players and coaches, not a limitation put in place by the university.

If you think we have “higher standards” in recruiting than the NCAA minimums, you should be able to point out what that standard is, right? What is it?
Yep. Why can Stanford and Northwestern and hell even Vandy/Tulsa compete a higher level than Tulane? Excuses, excuses, excuses.
I believe we now have the same NCAA minimum standards for high school athletes as everyone else, but only since WF & TD arrived on the scene. What I am not convinced of is that our JC transfer standards have changed. They made a slight change, letting WF recruit JC Players, but only the ones who were academically qualified coming out of high school. Well that eliminated 80% of the good players in the JC pool.......WF said there are not many good JC players who were academically qualified coming out of high school. If they were qualified and good athletes they would have signed with 4 yr college.

Until we get this JC issue on equal terms with the other colleges we compete against, as well as clear ups the issue of JC transferable math hours, we are not totally committed to big time athletic program. We appear headed in that direction, but I don't understand why we can't just get it done now.....We need 3 JC OL, and
3 JC DL in this class. As for the schools you mentioned, you think someone from Tulane would explore what they are doing to be so successful.
This isn’t that complicated actually. When you transfer in as a student we need to find equivalent classes at Tulane to give you credit for with your JC classes. If you took algebra at your JC because your HS math record was that bad, then no, we can’t accept that as a college credit class, and nor should we.

If you’re part of a state university system, you are often REQUIRED to take every credit from every JC in the state. So there is an architecture already in place for it. Still, you don’t see top programs living off JC talent that didn’t qualify out of HS. There’s a certain type of program where that works — but they’re also making a lot of other trade offs from a discipline perspective that Tulane (and most AAC schools) are not making.

UCF or USF or Memphis aren’t beating us with non-HS qualifying JuCo talent. They’re beating us with better 4-year players and scheme and staff. We are narrowing the gap in most of those areas, which is why you see us narrowing the gap on the field with them from where we were in 2015 and earlier.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:38 pm

netshorty wrote:
tpstulane wrote:Up and down year. I said 5-7 but thought we’d beat FIU and Cincy. We improved slightly from last year but that was expected (mainly because of the QB position). Overall I’d give the staff a C. We didn’t overachieve or underachieve based on what I thought. Banks was a difference maker. Without him we’d have 3 wins. Special teams was disappointing. Not having a reliable FG kicker probably cost us two more wins. The defense at times was great and at times not so great.
+1 Agree with your take here. C is a fair grade in my opinion. Just after homecoming he was an F but 2 solid games to end got him a passing grade. In reality with how the season started 3-2 and having FIU, Cincy & ECU on the schedule, 6-6 should have been a passing grade. UH win should have propelled WF to a solid A.

The important point is that I think 90%+ of us agree that WF is a better coach than CJ, Toledo, and the list goes on (sans Bowden). But all of those coaches failed. When we say "CJ's team would have lost by several touchdowns" or "no way a Toledo team makes it that close" the obvious reaction is "no sh!t". I think this is one thing that divides us in our views of progress. If we set the bar so low then small improvement could still equate to failing. Don't get me wrong, improvement is great. But just like the Physics class I took as a freshman, I showed up late to my first exam and walked away with a 20%, then showed up on time to the next exam and got a 35%. Nearly a 100% improvement but still not even close to passing.

I like WF and I get frustrated with WF. I have no idea what the ceiling is with him as a coach. There are signs (and you can point to his coaching history) that he can continue to push us toward our goals of competing for a conference championship and bowl eligibility each year. This is the trust the process view. And yet there are signs that we may be close to hitting the ceiling with him already based on the on-the-field performances over the last two seasons. What many of us fear as that we have a history of hanging with a coach too long, waiting for the process to finish, and yet the process resulted in a set-back instead of an advancement. I get that there's a new sheriff in town. Again, I'm not saying WF can or cannot get us to the promised land. I'm saying he's just been OK the first two years, not good or great, but not bad or terrible. And maybe I should be happy with OK because it's better than we've had.
+1. That low bar syndrome is a killer.

WF will get 5 years. He's TD's hire in the big sport so he'll get every chance. If he's not successful next year, and I'm not saying he won't be, then year 4 we'll be starting a new QB. So if he's not successful then it will be blamed on that.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:53 pm

winwave wrote:
+1. That low bar syndrome is a killer.

WF will get 5 years. He's TD's hire in the big sport so he'll get every chance. If he's not successful next year, and I'm not saying he won't be, then year 4 we'll be starting a new QB. So if he's not successful then it will be blamed on that.
:lol:
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:05 pm

tpstulane wrote:
Wavetrader wrote:
anEngineer wrote:
MicMan wrote:Comparing Fritz and Frost is ridiculous. UCF has no admissions standards.
This is as factual a statement as can be made. UCF can literally bring in "whatever" meets their needs on the football field and know that academics and culture will not be a problem.
If we are at the minimum like everyone else (we operate on a level playing field), how did Memphis bring in the younger Wilson when he wasn't eligible at Tulane. That was the story as I remember it a couple of years back, right? I really don't know, just looking for more information....
http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/s ... 699724001/
He wasn’t D1 eligible anywhere until this:
Memphis didn’t become a possibility until Wilson learned that taking another high school class would boost his grade-point average and make him Division I eligible. At that point, Wilson said, Tigers wide receivers coach David Johnson, who had recruited him as an assistant at Tulane, helped bring the defensive lineman aboard midway through preseason camp.
“When he had the opportunity to explore other options for his education, he elected to come up and take a look at Memphis. I’ll tell you, we’re extremely glad that he did,” Memphis coach Mike Norvell said. “What impressed me so much is he had never played with his hand in the grass. To come in and play as many snaps as he did last year, never playing on the interior, and to have the impact he did, that was pretty remarkable.”
Thanks for finally clearing that up. We instituted the change to minimum standards and added the new majors when CJ came in.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:06 pm

netshorty wrote:
winwave wrote:
+1. That low bar syndrome is a killer.

WF will get 5 years. He's TD's hire in the big sport so he'll get every chance. If he's not successful next year, and I'm not saying he won't be, then year 4 we'll be starting a new QB. So if he's not successful then it will be blamed on that.
:lol:
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LOL.
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Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:12 pm

winwave wrote:
netshorty wrote:
winwave wrote:
+1. That low bar syndrome is a killer.

WF will get 5 years. He's TD's hire in the big sport so he'll get every chance. If he's not successful next year, and I'm not saying he won't be, then year 4 we'll be starting a new QB. So if he's not successful then it will be blamed on that.
:lol:
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LOL.
You laugh. He'd probably be a better mayor than what New Orleans just elected.
"ASK AND YE SHALL RECEIVE! HANG EM AND BANG EM! HANG EM AND BANG EM!"-- Todd Graffagnini
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