For Discussion-What would you do....

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winwave
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Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:59 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:
winwave wrote:I was mostly referring to the NFL but they get scholarships and they do get stipends and many other benefits. They are on the teams time then and not their own. If they want to protest they can buy a ticket and go the game and sit when the anthem is played.
Well you're obviously wrong. Their employers are allowing them to protest. The owners don't have a problem with it. So why should you?
They have and they made a bad decision. Any other company would have given the employee the chance to end their protest or end their employment. So the principal remains that they are on company time and shouldn't be protesting. Thus fans and sponsors are responding. Ask Kapernick if he thinks his potential employers took note of his protesting.


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GreenPuddleSplash
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Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:00 pm

winwave wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:
winwave wrote:I was mostly referring to the NFL but they get scholarships and they do get stipends and many other benefits. They are on the teams time then and not their own. If they want to protest they can buy a ticket and go the game and sit when the anthem is played.
Well you're obviously wrong. Their employers are allowing them to protest. The owners don't have a problem with it. So why should you?
They have and they made a bad decision. Any other company would have given the employee the chance to end their protest or end their employment. So the principal remains that they are on company time and shouldn't be protesting. Thus fans and sponsors are responding.
And the response by fans and sponsors have been tepid. If the response had been more significant, do you really think NFL owner's like Mr. Hunt of KC Chiefs who threatened the team last season that if anyone protested they would get fired and 5 days ago backed down from his statement from last season and allowing his players to protest this season with no threat of recourse?
winwave
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Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:29 pm

Ask Vacarro about that tepid response. More important is that it doesn't change the fact that one shouldn't protest on company time. Hunt didn't back down. Trump placed him in a bad spot after calling players SOB's. If the league isn't being affected they wouldn't have called that meeting with the union this week.
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Aberzombie1892
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Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:38 pm

winwave wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
winwave wrote:same thing. They are on Tulane's time and representing Tulane.
If scholarships and actual financial payment were the same thing, (1) NCAAF amateurism would not exist and (2) scholarships would have transferable value.
They do receive stipends and if you don't consider a full scholarship a thing of value I don't what to say to you.
No one said scholarships did not have any value. If that reference is to what I said, it's misses the word "transferable" in front of value. In the current NCAAF system, scholarships have no transferable value. Not any.

As for stipends, ~$2-4K is an unreasonable approximation of the average value of each football player even if coupled with COA, especially (1) when some players, such as Baker Mayfield at Oklahoma or even Jonathan Banks at Tulane, are worth far more to the program than the average football player on the team and (2) when players cannot benefit off of their likeness off of the field.
winwave wrote:Ask Vacarro about that tepid response. More important is that it doesn't change the fact that one shouldn't protest on company time. Hunt didn't back down. Trump placed him in a bad spot after calling players SOB's. If the league isn't being affected they wouldn't have called that meeting with the union this week.
It's not company time because they are not employees. Further, they are explicitly not employees, and there are NCAAF rules in place that explicitly prevent them from profiting off of their likeness or being compensated.

As for the league, sure the NFL could try to implement a rule that states that the players must stand during the next negotiation with the NFLPA, but the NFLPA will not take that lightly.
winwave
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Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:58 pm

They are representing Tulane and are most certainly compensated.
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:15 am

winwave wrote:They are representing Tulane and are most certainly compensated.
I recieved a full scholy from TU, I also recieved a salary to teach undergrads and money to travel on behalf of the university. They messed up bad by not monitoring my activist work when I was under their dime. For shame.
Aberzombie1892
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:47 am

winwave wrote:They are representing Tulane and are most certainly compensated.
Again, no one said they are not compensated. If you are referring to what I said, they are given a scholarship of non-transferable value and a small stipend, which was designed and intended to be a make whole for the COA, and these items along with all of the associated rules are explicitly why student athletes are not considered to be employees.

This seems to circling around the whole "There is a right way to protest" argument fallacy.
winwave
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:28 am

mbawavefan12 wrote:
winwave wrote:They are representing Tulane and are most certainly compensated.
I recieved a full scholy from TU, I also recieved a salary to teach undergrads and money to travel on behalf of the university. They messed up bad by not monitoring my activist work when I was under their dime. For shame.
Yet you stood for the anthem at all the Tulane athletic events you attended. :mrgreen:
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winwave
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:31 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
winwave wrote:They are representing Tulane and are most certainly compensated.
Again, no one said they are not compensated. If you are referring to what I said, they are given a scholarship of non-transferable value and a small stipend, which was designed and intended to be a make whole for the COA, and these items along with all of the associated rules are explicitly why student athletes are not considered to be employees.

This seems to circling around the whole "There is a right way to protest" argument fallacy.
They are wearing a Tulane uniform so they are representing the school. Like I said if they want to protest during the anthem they should give up their scholarship and buy a ticket to the game and protest. Not complicated.
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DfromCT
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:32 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote: As for the league, sure the NFL could try to implement a rule that states that the players must stand during the next negotiation with the NFLPA, but the NFLPA will not take that lightly.
That rule already exists. The NFL is choosing not to enforce it in today's environment.
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winwave
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:38 am

Actually it's not a rule in the NFL. They were discussing this yesterday and it is mentioned in their procedure manual but it is not a rule such as the NBA has.

It looks like this week they'll be kneeling before the anthem and then standing for the anthem. I think many will continue to be turned off by it. People go to the games to get away from all the stress of life. They don't pay to see a protest. Vacarro said "well what bigger platform can we get". Well many would say to spend his money and buy TV time.
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DfromCT
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:47 pm

I would say as many people that are turned off by it is matched by those that support it. Watch tomorrow how many people in the stands lock arms. A year ago MOST were dead against this, but things have changed.

During the Packers vs. Bengals game last weekend the announcers discussed how teams are, by the terms of the agreement between the league and the individual teams , required to be standing on the sidelines during the anthem.

Edit note: The term CBA was improperly used.
Last edited by DfromCT on Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" For every alum, no matter where they are...I want a football coach that's going to make Saturday something you anticipate and look forward to." Troy Dannen

Thank you all for your ongoing support as my son Zach continues to beat leukemia
winwave
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:26 pm

Actually the polls have not shown that to be the case. I will be watching and I doubt many in the stands will lock arms.

As I stated above it was explained in detail yesterday that there is no rule in the NFL as there is in the NBA. In the procedure manual it is suggested that they stand.
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:14 pm

winwave wrote: As I stated above it was explained in detail yesterday that there is no rule in the NFL as there is in the NBA. In the procedure manual it is suggested that they stand.
You make it sound like every time you make one of your proclamations, we should bow down and take it as Gospel. That's why we don't get along: I call you on your BS, and you think I'm deranged for failing to see your side.

Of course, the almighty and powerful Fido is right and the announcers on the game's broadcast were wrong.

Perhaps it's not in the individual players contracts, as it is in the NBA, but it's in the agreement between the league and it's teams, as was explained during the broadcast. Apparently this started when the military started making donations to the league for the purpose of having the players seen during the star spangled banner on Prime Time games in the late stages of the last decade (I still don't know what to call the years between 2001 and 2010!) So the teams that didn't show for the anthem could have been fined, significantly. Those that took a knee before the anthem, but stood for it, broke no rules.
" For every alum, no matter where they are...I want a football coach that's going to make Saturday something you anticipate and look forward to." Troy Dannen

Thank you all for your ongoing support as my son Zach continues to beat leukemia
winwave
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Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:02 pm

You really need to deal with your anger issues and your obsession. The person who gave the information explained how the NBA made it a RULE after a former NBA player refused to stand. The NFL has no such rule. It's procedure manual suggest that players stand and remain silent during the anthem.

The bottom line is we heard two different things. The reason I believe what i heard is that if it were in the CBA then Kapernick would have been penalized, fined and or suspended. None of that happened so I don't think it's in the CBA.
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Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:24 pm

or if Player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely
affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate this contract.


Page 260 of the below document, which is page 5 of the Standard NFL Player contract that everyone signs. The 49ers could have used this to stop Kaepernick at the very beginning.

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/20 ... 1-2020.pdf
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