More disturbing baseball news

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More disturbing baseball news

Postby winwave » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:33 pm

This was on the Rivals site earlier and so some have known but here it is:

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/ ... 90b54.html

Disappointing to say the least.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby DfromCT » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:51 pm

Shocked that (Pitching Coach) Tighe Dickinson is coming back. The pitching, at least the starting pitching, was supposed to be the backbone of the team. As a staff, it was bad.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby msdos » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:05 pm

If you want to read into this - and this is an internet sports forum, so let's - this tells me that Jewett is under no pressure from Dannen since he didn't feel the need to make any changes. This would confirm the theory that Dannen doesn't care about baseball.



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby msdos » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:06 pm

Btw, I haven't been drinking THAT much
;)



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:44 pm

He was fired at FIU last year before coming here. I hope he doesn't make Massey throw a weighted ball next year like he did this year. He's not a power pitcher.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby Profoundwizard » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:29 pm

tpstulane wrote:He was fired at FIU last year before coming here. I hope he doesn't make Massey throw a weighted ball next year like he did this year. He's not a power pitcher.


I hate to come to Dickinson's defense but I think he actually never even coached a game at FIU. He was hired on August 5 2015 and left for a scouting job with the Indians on January 8 2016.
Weighted balls did not cause Massey's struggles this year. Adding velocity is a good thing. Oregon St uses a weighted ball program for their pitchers. Vandy too.

Now this work history doesn't look very good to me.

In the 2015 season, Arkansas State pitched to a 4.58 ERA and struck out the second-most batters in school history with 426. The staff also held opposing hitters to a .262 batting average


In his years as pitching coach at Arkansas State:
2014 ERA 4.31
2013 ERA 4.72
2012 ERA 4.56
2011 ERA 4.52
Not good.

I think he was only the pitching coach at Washington for the 2009 season and the ERA was 4.88
That staff was fired at the end of that year. He was a volunteer assistant there for a couple years prior.



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:42 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:
tpstulane wrote:He was fired at FIU last year before coming here. I hope he doesn't make Massey throw a weighted ball next year like he did this year. He's not a power pitcher.


I hate to come to Dickinson's defense but I think he actually never even coached a game at FIU. He was hired on August 5 2015 and left for a scouting job with the Indians on January 8 2016.
Weighted balls did not cause Massey's struggles this year. Adding velocity is a good thing. Oregon St uses a weighted ball program for their pitchers. Vandy too.

Now this work history doesn't look very good to me.

In the 2015 season, Arkansas State pitched to a 4.58 ERA and struck out the second-most batters in school history with 426. The staff also held opposing hitters to a .262 batting average


In his years as pitching coach at Arkansas State:
2014 ERA 4.31
2013 ERA 4.72
2012 ERA 4.56
2011 ERA 4.52
Not good.

I think he was only the pitching coach at Washington for the 2009 season and the ERA was 4.88
That staff was fired at the end of that year. He was a volunteer assistant there for a couple years prior.

Adding velocity doesn't matter if you loose command. Ross went from 10 wins to what 0 and 8. Throwing below bat speed is what a lot of pitchers especially L H pitchers do. See Joey Charron, Jarred Berkowitz. Think Tom Glaven or Gregg Maddox threw hard? Both HoF pitchers. And he was let go at FIU. It was a bad decision to have him throw a weighted ball. It failed miserably with him and messed with his head as well. He's a crafty LH and not a power pitcher.
You don't mess with success. Ross was a freshman All American last year. He should have pitched him late in games that we had under control to get his confidence back. He was put in some bad spots considering how he was struggling.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby Profoundwizard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:50 am

tpstulane wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:
tpstulane wrote:He was fired at FIU last year before coming here. I hope he doesn't make Massey throw a weighted ball next year like he did this year. He's not a power pitcher.


I hate to come to Dickinson's defense but I think he actually never even coached a game at FIU. He was hired on August 5 2015 and left for a scouting job with the Indians on January 8 2016.
Weighted balls did not cause Massey's struggles this year. Adding velocity is a good thing. Oregon St uses a weighted ball program for their pitchers. Vandy too.

Now this work history doesn't look very good to me.

In the 2015 season, Arkansas State pitched to a 4.58 ERA and struck out the second-most batters in school history with 426. The staff also held opposing hitters to a .262 batting average


In his years as pitching coach at Arkansas State:
2014 ERA 4.31
2013 ERA 4.72
2012 ERA 4.56
2011 ERA 4.52
Not good.

I think he was only the pitching coach at Washington for the 2009 season and the ERA was 4.88
That staff was fired at the end of that year. He was a volunteer assistant there for a couple years prior.

Adding velocity doesn't matter if you loose command. Ross went from 10 wins to what 0 and 8. Throwing below bat speed is what a lot of pitchers especially L H pitchers do. See Joey Charron, Jarred Berkowitz. Think Tom Glaven or Gregg Maddox threw hard? Both HoF pitchers. And he was let go at FIU. It was a bad decision to have him throw a weighted ball. It failed miserably with him. Messed with his head as well. He's a crafty LH and not a power pitcher.
You don't mess with success. Ross was a freshman All American last year. He should have pitched him in late in games we had under control to get his confidence back. He was put in some bad spots considering how he was struggling.


Maybe he was fired at FIU, but just looking at the dates of his hiring by FIU and then by the Indians it doesn't seem like he'd have even coached a game. Whether it was a firing or just him leaving it's probably a weird situation regardless.
I don't see why adding velocity would cause him to lose his command. I think that's speculation. I think it's also speculation to say it messed with his head.
A lot of pitchers, especially LHP do throw below bat speed. Most of them are bad. Maddux did throw pretty hard for most of his career.
I could go on a long tirade about how weighted balls don't hurt your command and throwing harder is a good thing but I'll just post this about the NCAA ERA leader.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/college/article155224599.html

He pitched immediately for the Beavers, pitching in 29 games as a true freshman, posting a 3.61 ERA.

The next year, he finished with a 3.53 ERA.

Heimlich ramped up his offseason activities last summer. He packed on a few more pounds, and now stands at 6-foot-1 and 197 pounds.

Last summer, he stayed in Corvallis, Oregon, to work out in a pitching program designed by Driveline, which uses weighted balls and different throwing rates to strengthen the arm.

Heimlich’s velocity took an immediate jump – from the upper-80 mph range to 95 mph. And he’s been able to maintain that type of fastball deep in games.

He also sharpened up some of his breaking pitches. The results have been astounding – 11-1 record, 0.76 ERA, 128 strikeouts in 118.1 innings, and no home runs given up.


He did the weighted balls in the offseason, throws harder than before and is walking less guys.
26 BB's in 86 innings in 2016
22 BB's in 118 innings in 2017



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:03 am

Profoundwizard wrote:Maybe he was fired at FIU, but just looking at the dates of his hiring by FIU and then by the Indians it doesn't seem like he'd have even coached a game. Whether it was a firing or just him leaving it's probably a weird situation regardless.
I don't see why adding velocity would cause him to lose his command. I think that's speculation. I think it's also speculation to say it messed with his head.
A lot of pitchers, especially LHP do throw below bat speed. Most of them are bad. Maddux did throw pretty hard for most of his career.
I could go on a long tirade about how weighted balls don't hurt your command and throwing harder is a good thing but I'll just post this about the NCAA ERA leader.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/college/article155224599.html

He pitched immediately for the Beavers, pitching in 29 games as a true freshman, posting a 3.61 ERA.

The next year, he finished with a 3.53 ERA.

Heimlich ramped up his offseason activities last summer. He packed on a few more pounds, and now stands at 6-foot-1 and 197 pounds.

Last summer, he stayed in Corvallis, Oregon, to work out in a pitching program designed by Driveline, which uses weighted balls and different throwing rates to strengthen the arm.

Heimlich’s velocity took an immediate jump – from the upper-80 mph range to 95 mph. And he’s been able to maintain that type of fastball deep in games.

He also sharpened up some of his breaking pitches. The results have been astounding – 11-1 record, 0.76 ERA, 128 strikeouts in 118.1 innings, and no home runs given up.


He did the weighted balls in the offseason, throws harder than before and is walking less guys.
26 BB's in 86 innings in 2016
22 BB's in 118 innings in 2017

Weighted ball over the summer vs in the Fall/Spring. Huge huge huge difference. You never train like that right before the season. That's insane. Oregon St pitching coaches vs Tulane's. Huge huge huge huge difference. Obviously it didn't work for Ross he won 10 games throwing below bat speed. Here's what I know. He went from 10 wins to 0 and completely lost his command. These three things changed. New training methods (weighted balls too close to the season), new coach, new mound. Pick your poison or all three. I haven't seen your explanation.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby Profoundwizard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:22 pm

I don't know the specifics of the program Ross was put on. Maybe you do, but it's hard for me to give a real defense of it without knowing the specifics.

I will say that correlation doesn't imply causation. And I stand by the belief that adding velocity was a good idea.



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:37 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:I don't know the specifics of the program Ross was put on. Maybe you do, but it's hard for me to give a real defense of it without knowing the specifics.

I will say that correlation doesn't imply causation. And I stand by the belief that adding velocity was a good idea.

That's fine. We can disagree. All I know is he went from an All American pitcher to winless. Something went wrong. I'm sticking by what I know.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby Profoundwizard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:11 pm

Something definitely went wrong. Above my pay grade to say what caused it



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:31 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:Something definitely went wrong. Above my pay grade to say what caused it

The winningest pitcher in Tulane History is Jarred Berkowitz. The Hall of Famer threw 83-84 mph but he hit spots had a great pickoff move and could throw his change at any time in any count. 38 wins. Ross was on track to break his record. And FYI Jewett offered the job to Jack Cressend first but the Dodgers stepped up to keep him.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby Profoundwizard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:56 pm

tpstulane wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:Something definitely went wrong. Above my pay grade to say what caused it

The winningest pitcher in Tulane History is Jarred Berkowitz. The Hall of Famer threw 83-84 mph but he hit spots had a great pickoff move and could throw his change at any time in any count. 38 wins. Ross was on track to break his record. And FYI Jewett offered the job to Jack Cressend first but the Dodgers stepped up to keep him.


There are certainly instances of guys who don't throw hard being good pitchers, but its few and far between and it can be hard to sustain success like that.

So that means Dickinson was the 3rd choice. Jack Giese was also offered the job. He originally accepted but didn't have a college degree so we wouldn't hire him. Personally I didn't think Cressend did a very good job when he was the Tulane pitching coach back in 2009-10;



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:09 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:
tpstulane wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:Something definitely went wrong. Above my pay grade to say what caused it

The winningest pitcher in Tulane History is Jarred Berkowitz. The Hall of Famer threw 83-84 mph but he hit spots had a great pickoff move and could throw his change at any time in any count. 38 wins. Ross was on track to break his record. And FYI Jewett offered the job to Jack Cressend first but the Dodgers stepped up to keep him.


There are certainly instances of guys who don't throw hard being good pitchers, but its few and far between and it can be hard to sustain success like that.

So that means Dickinson was the 3rd choice. Jack Giese was also offered the job. He originally accepted but didn't have a college degree so we wouldn't hire him. Personally I didn't think Cressend did a very good job when he was the Tulane pitching coach back in 2009-10;
Thats fine but that's not what the Dodgers think. And again Maddox never threw hard ever. Bottom line 10 wins as Freshman and 0-8 as Soph. No way does that happen under Pierce.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby Profoundwizard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:17 pm

Isn't Cressend just a scout for the Dodgers? He may be great at that, I have no idea. Just look at the ERA numbers when he was our pitching coach. It wasn't good.

I mostly agree that Massey wouldn't have had the struggles he had if Pierce was still here.



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:58 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:Isn't Cressend just a scout for the Dodgers? He may be great at that, I have no idea. Just look at the ERA numbers when he was our pitching coach. It wasn't good.

I mostly agree that Massey wouldn't have had the struggles he had if Pierce was still here.

Jack's a national evaluater for pitchers for the Dodgers Organization. I think they have a lot of confidence in his abilities.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby winwave » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:00 pm

He left us after one year and went to Houston and got after one year.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:20 pm

winwave wrote:He left us after one year and went to Houston and got after one year.

Nope.
He was with us for 2 years and Houston for 2 years. Go check.
http://www.nola.com/tulane/index.ssf/20 ... ach_j.html
Cressend, who spent two seasons on the Green Wave's staff, will hold the same position with the Cougars.



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby winwave » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:37 pm

Bottom line is he got fired at Houston. He isn't qualified to be a pitching coach.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:51 pm

winwave wrote:Bottom line is he got fired at Houston. He isn't qualified to be a pitching coach.

During Cressend's two years as pitching coach at Tulane, eight pitchers went on to sign professional contracts.
He spent 11 seasons playing professional baseball including five seasons (2000-2004) in the Major Leagues with the Minnesota Twins and Cleveland Indians. He left UH on his own he wasn't fired. He's more than qualified.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby winwave » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:57 pm

He was fired. I don't think he's ever been hired as a pitching coach anywhere else.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:00 pm

winwave wrote:He was fired. I don't think he's ever been hired as a pitching coach anywhere else.

Nope. Got a pay raise and left on his own. He liked the pro game much better. In fact the after leaving the Rays the Dodgers created a new position just for him.
Besides his time line you got wrong you have no clue about him leaving UH. You're wrong on both counts.


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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby Profoundwizard » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:11 pm

All I can say is the ERA #s we put up in his two years here were not good.
5.73 in 2010, his last year here is one of our worst ERA's ever.



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Re: More disturbing baseball news

Postby tpstulane » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:14 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:All I can say is the ERA #s we put up in his two years here were not good.
5.73 in 2010, his last year here is one of our worst ERA's ever.

Gorilla Bats and Balls period. You never be able to compare ERA's, HR's Etc then to now. It was a completely different game. The NCAA reduced the bat size in 2011. Balls changed later.
It's akin to the MLB steroids era.
He knows pitching better than what we currently have.


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