Truth about stacking-Finally

Profoundwizard
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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Profoundwizard » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:25 pm

I don't deny any of that stuff, chain gang. Matt did whatever was asked of him to help the team, which for much of his time was catching the bullpen. A thankless job for sure.
I wasn't trying to bash the kid but I think we should all be honest about what the legislative scholarship is. Not many of the kids who will qualify for it are going to be really good baseball players too.
I wasn't trying to disparage Matt as a person or player.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Show Me » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:36 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:I don't deny any of that stuff, chain gang. Matt did whatever was asked of him to help the team, which for much of his time was catching the bullpen. A thankless job for sure.
I wasn't trying to bash the kid but I think we should all be honest about what the legislative scholarship is. Not many of the kids who will qualify for it are going to be really good baseball players too.
I wasn't trying to disparage Matt as a person or player.

Same here.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:16 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:
winwave wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:
winwave wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:Jesus, we don't have to pretend 3 hits and 17 at-bats over 4 seasons is a real contribution. If you're making that argument you're just being argumentative


He hit a home run that got us a win while playing for an injured Alemais. You can discount it but I won't.


Nobody is discounting that. The fact remains that he barely contributed


He contributed to an important win a Regional season. We'll have to agree to disagree as to the nature of his contribution.

You're ridiculous. You just never back down from your argument no matter how wrong it is. 3 hits in 4 seasons is a nothing burger in terms of contributing. You know that, but you've already said otherwise and you just refuse to admit to being wrong about anything.


Pot calling kettle black. It was said he didn't contribute at all. The kid hit a home run to win us a game. I just pointed that out. Never said he was a stud.
Last edited by winwave on Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:18 pm

Show Me wrote:What you're seeing is a fan committee member winwave carrying the AD's water pail. Nothing more. Someone has to cover for the coaching debacle.


Lol. He didn't play under Jewett. But when you got nothing try and divert.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:23 pm

nowave wrote:
winwave wrote:As i have posted elsewhere a poster on the other site long ago debunked that larger figure. They have to live on campus but that figure includes a number of things .


so the link I posted above to the tulane site that says that it costs almost $70K a year, including all fees, is a lie?



I never said it was as a lie. Someone years ago on the other site posted a detailed outline of what was involved and how some if it can be gotten around.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:26 pm

Show Me wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:I don't deny any of that stuff, chain gang. Matt did whatever was asked of him to help the team, which for much of his time was catching the bullpen. A thankless job for sure.
I wasn't trying to bash the kid but I think we should all be honest about what the legislative scholarship is. Not many of the kids who will qualify for it are going to be really good baseball players too.
I wasn't trying to disparage Matt as a person or player.

Same here.


Well you both did.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Profoundwizard » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:30 pm

winwave wrote:
Show Me wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:I don't deny any of that stuff, chain gang. Matt did whatever was asked of him to help the team, which for much of his time was catching the bullpen. A thankless job for sure.
I wasn't trying to bash the kid but I think we should all be honest about what the legislative scholarship is. Not many of the kids who will qualify for it are going to be really good baseball players too.
I wasn't trying to disparage Matt as a person or player.

Same here.


Well you both did.


Nobody bashed him, I just posted the stats. If that's upsetting to some people then I don't know what to tell them. Maybe I'll post a trigger warning for you next time.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Show Me » Thu Jun 08, 2017 7:43 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:
winwave wrote:
Show Me wrote:
Profoundwizard wrote:I don't deny any of that stuff, chain gang. Matt did whatever was asked of him to help the team, which for much of his time was catching the bullpen. A thankless job for sure.
I wasn't trying to bash the kid but I think we should all be honest about what the legislative scholarship is. Not many of the kids who will qualify for it are going to be really good baseball players too.
I wasn't trying to disparage Matt as a person or player.

Same here.


Well you both did.


Nobody bashed him, I just posted the stats. If that's upsetting to some people then I don't know what to tell them. Maybe I'll post a trigger warning for you next time.

We know winwave doesn't worry about that stuff.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:03 pm

So y'all are back to bashing him .


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Profoundwizard » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:16 pm

If posting the facts/stats are bashing then sure. But that's not bashing you're just being intentionally obtuse



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Profoundwizard » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:28 pm

winwave wrote:So y'all are back to bashing him .


Its pathetic the way you act when you're in an argument on here. When the facts aren't on your side you just make things up and usually just try to make the person you're arguing with look bad. In the end it's always you who looks bad. Grow up.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby threeputt » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:50 pm

institutions to package academics and baseball, so you can have one or the other or you can have both, but what you can't do, and what everybody's frustration is, you can't couple financial aid with baseball. That's the NCAA tango with those two things."


That's not really true. You can stack finicaial aid and athletes aid all you want - even at Tulane ... The issue of that the NCAA counts the finicaial aid as part of the 11.7 scholarships. The student athlete never has to choose one or the other ..

If total cost of school is $50,000 and a school offers a player $25,000 in financial aid and $25,000 in athletic aid - that players total package counts as 1 total scholarship

If total coat of school is $50,000 and a school offer a player who meets academic guidelines a $25,000 academic scholarship and a $25,000 in athletic aid - that players total package counts as .5 in terms of total scholarship.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:08 pm

Profoundwizard wrote:
winwave wrote:So y'all are back to bashing him .


Its pathetic the way you act when you're in an argument on here. When the facts aren't on your side you just make things up and usually just try to make the person you're arguing with look bad. In the end it's always you who looks bad. Grow up.


Actually you just described yourself.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby McWave » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:11 am

Question for winwave: Does the TU development office target sports restricted endowed money? I believe donors can put restrictions on the population (i.e. home town, academic major, military legacy, etc.) of potential recipients. is there any effort to target donors with ties/interest in specific sports. If so, how does one participant/donate?



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby DfromCT » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:37 am

One thing that gets lost in this talk about athletic scholarships, financial aid, academic scholarships, and the endowment is that when a University gives a scholarship of ANY kind, it's not cutting a check and spending money. It's one hand paying the other. In other words even though tuition is $50k (and it IS $50k: http://www2.tulane.edu/financialaid/cos ... orical.cfm) that's not what it costs Tulane to give a student a full scholarship of any kind. Do restaurants charge themselves the same price when they feed their employees as they do their patrons? HELL NO.

The endowment growth LAGGED TREMENDOUSLY under Scott Cowen. We were told what a great fundraiser he was, meanwhile the growth of the endowments at those schools we considered our Peers in the 80's and 90's dwarfed the growth of Tulane's endowment under Scott Cowen, which is why those schools are no longer our peers. Rice, Stanford and Vanderbilt blew us away during his tenure. But I regress; we have other threads to bash SC.


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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:17 pm

McWave wrote:Question for winwave: Does the TU development office target sports restricted endowed money? I believe donors can put restrictions on the population (i.e. home town, academic major, military legacy, etc.) of potential recipients. is there any effort to target donors with ties/interest in specific sports. If so, how does one participant/donate?


Check your pm.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Show Me » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:57 pm

Tulane was warned about the tuition and transfer rule changes 10 years ago. What has Tulane done about it?
NOTHING
Tulane administration "Show Me" you care.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby ajcalhoun » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:30 pm

winwave wrote:
McWave wrote:Question for winwave: Does the TU development office target sports restricted endowed money? I believe donors can put restrictions on the population (i.e. home town, academic major, military legacy, etc.) of potential recipients. is there any effort to target donors with ties/interest in specific sports. If so, how does one participant/donate?


Check your pm.

Is it not something you can share with the rest of us?


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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:22 pm

This article does a good job of explaining how Vanderbilt (and other wealthy programs) do it - they give .25 of a baseball counter since that is the minimum that they have to give but then give academic and need based aid to make up the difference. It looks like poorer schools, like Tulane and TCU (which has a larger endowment than Tulane, no less), have to use larger percentages of baseball athletic scholarship counters on each player (i.e. closer to 1.0 on a single player) in order to get players when wealthier programs are able to use lower percentages of counters on each player (i.e. closer to 0.0 on a single player) while being able to supplement that with large amounts of need based and/or NCAA benchmark meeting academic based aid.

"For example, TCU outfielder Jerrick Suiter, who had a great year as a freshman, could have attended Vanderbilt, another private school that advanced to the CWS in 2011, and received the same amount of need-based and academic aid as he is getting at TCU with a substantial baseball scholarship.

But he would have been a "free player" at Vandy because he would have only cost the program at most, 25 percent of a full athletic scholarship, which is the minimum amount a student-athlete can be given. His academic aid at Vanderbilt would have equaled his athletic scholarship at TCU, allowing the Commodores coaches to use his baseball scholarship on another player. At TCU, the academic aid wasn't available, so Suiter, one of the top recruits in the nation a year ago, was given a substantial portion of a full athletic scholarship."

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3831986.html



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Show Me » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:53 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:This article does a good job of explaining how Vanderbilt (and other wealthy programs) do it - they give .25 of a baseball counter since that is the minimum that they have to give but then give academic and need based aid to make up the difference. It looks like poorer schools, like Tulane and TCU (which has a larger endowment than Tulane, no less), have to use larger percentages of baseball athletic scholarship counters on each player (i.e. closer to 1.0 on a single player) in order to get players when wealthier programs are able to use lower percentages of counters on each player (i.e. closer to 0.0 on a single player) while being able to supplement that with large amounts of need based and/or NCAA benchmark meeting academic based aid.

"For example, TCU outfielder Jerrick Suiter, who had a great year as a freshman, could have attended Vanderbilt, another private school that advanced to the CWS in 2011, and received the same amount of need-based and academic aid as he is getting at TCU with a substantial baseball scholarship.

But he would have been a "free player" at Vandy because he would have only cost the program at most, 25 percent of a full athletic scholarship, which is the minimum amount a student-athlete can be given. His academic aid at Vanderbilt would have equaled his athletic scholarship at TCU, allowing the Commodores coaches to use his baseball scholarship on another player. At TCU, the academic aid wasn't available, so Suiter, one of the top recruits in the nation a year ago, was given a substantial portion of a full athletic scholarship."

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3831986.html

Why do you think Vandy recruits itself. I could go sign a Top 10 class there. It's like being an assistant basketball coach from Kentucky (Shawn Finney anyone?) Kentucky basketball recruits itself as well. By the way where does this class that Jewett is bringing in rank? He's freed up a lot of money with all those players leaving. Should be able to do what Jones/Gautreau did in 2013.



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby DfromCT » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:08 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:This article does a good job of explaining how Vanderbilt (and other wealthy programs) do it - they give .25 of a baseball counter since that is the minimum that they have to give but then give academic and need based aid to make up the difference. It looks like poorer schools, like Tulane and TCU (which has a larger endowment than Tulane, no less), have to use larger percentages of baseball athletic scholarship counters on each player (i.e. closer to 1.0 on a single player) in order to get players when wealthier programs are able to use lower percentages of counters on each player (i.e. closer to 0.0 on a single player) while being able to supplement that with large amounts of need based and/or NCAA benchmark meeting academic based aid.

"For example, TCU outfielder Jerrick Suiter, who had a great year as a freshman, could have attended Vanderbilt, another private school that advanced to the CWS in 2011, and received the same amount of need-based and academic aid as he is getting at TCU with a substantial baseball scholarship.

But he would have been a "free player" at Vandy because he would have only cost the program at most, 25 percent of a full athletic scholarship, which is the minimum amount a student-athlete can be given. His academic aid at Vanderbilt would have equaled his athletic scholarship at TCU, allowing the Commodores coaches to use his baseball scholarship on another player. At TCU, the academic aid wasn't available, so Suiter, one of the top recruits in the nation a year ago, was given a substantial portion of a full athletic scholarship."

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/article3831986.html


According to some of our experts, you cannot stack need based aid with athletic aid, not because of the Tulane BOA, but because of NCAA rules. Athletic and Academic aid can be stacked, the thread dedicated to this topic explains.


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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:22 pm

That comes from Jewett who has been the recruiting coordinator for 4 years at Vandy and is now our HC. If need based aid can be used at Vandy he'd know. It's 5 year old article and the author contradicts himself where in one paragraph he says he got need based and academic and then in the next calls it academic aid. TPS and show me told you they have known this to be the case for years that it is an NCAA rule agianst using need based aid w/baseball money.

The money quote by Schloss:

The scholarship crunch forces coaches such as Schlossnagle to explain to the parents of recruits why their son is being offered only a partial scholarship and why they'll still have to pay a sizeable portion.


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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby tpstulane » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:29 pm

winwave wrote:That comes from Jewett who has been the recruiting coordinator for 4 years at Vandy and is now our HC. If need based aid can be used at Vandy he'd know. It's 5 year old article and the author contradicts himself where in one paragraph he says he got need based and academic and then in the next calls it academic aid. TPS and show me told you they have known this to be the case for years that it is an NCAA rule agianst using need based aid w/baseball money.

The money quote by Schloss:

The scholarship crunch forces coaches such as Schlossnagle to explain to the parents of recruits why their son is being offered only a partial scholarship and why they'll still have to pay a sizeable portion.

Vandy can afford give 100% need base. Not being able to stack has zero impact on them. They have the best of all worlds. They also have minority schools. I agree with ShowMe. They should be in the CWS every year with that ridiculous advantage.


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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:34 pm

NCAA Bylaws

15.5.4 Baseball Limitations. There shall be an annual limit of 11.7 on the value of financial aid awards
(equivalencies) to counters and an annual limit of 27 on the total number of counters in baseball at each institution.
(Adopted: 4/26/07 effective 8/1/08)
15.5.4.1 Minimum Equivalency Value. An institution shall provide each counter athletically related and
other countable financial aid that is equal to or greater than 25 percent of an equivalency. (Adopted: 4/26/07 effective
8/1/08 for student-athletes who initially enroll full time at any four-year collegiate institution on or after 8/1/08,
Revised: 8/9/07)
15.5.4.1.1 Exception—Need-Based Athletics Aid Only. In baseball, an institution that awards athletically
related financial aid based solely on demonstrated financial need, as determined for all students by
the institution’s financial aid office using methodologies that conform to federal, state and written institutional
guidelines (including institutional financial aid that is considered athletically related financial aid
based on the intervention of athletics department staff), is not subject to the 25 percent minimum equivalency
value per counter.


http://www.ncaapublications.com/product ... s/D117.pdf

NEED BASED AID CAN BE ISSUED TO BASEBALL ATHLETES WITHOUT BEING SUBJECT TO THE BASEBALL COUNTER.

Can we all move past this issue now?



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Re: Truth about stacking-Finally

Postby winwave » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:39 pm

You didn't highlight the important part. It's referring to the player getting only need based aid not counting against the scholarship money. If you know more than Jewett please call and straighten him out. As you said need based doesn't count against the 11.7 but it can't be stacked.


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