Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby RobertM320 » Tue May 09, 2017 7:50 pm

DfromCT wrote:
GreenPuddleSplash wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Well, it's finally happened. I'm not sure whether it's a victory or a loss.

http://www.nola.com/tulane/index.ssf/20 ... obile_home


I wonder what made LSWHO change their tune? They went from we want nothing to do with you to hey let's cohost a football camp... I don't know what it is, but something feels off....


It seems obvious to me that they'd rather co-host with us than have Michigan doing so in their back yard. Am I missing something?


That was exactly my thought. I'd guarantee Orgeron made the call to us.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby wave97 » Tue May 09, 2017 8:02 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:I consider it a loss. I'd much rather have Michigan coaches on our campus than LSU coaches. At the same time, it may mean that the Tulane staff feels more Louisiana kids would rather be evaluated by Ed Orgeron and Co. than Jim Harbaugh and Co. My bet is LSU is hunting for a coach once again in 3 years, and Harbaugh will win a national championship in that timeframe.


I think I agree with some of this. It would be best for Tulane to weaken LSU's stranglehold on Louisiana recruits at all costs - even if that means hosting more camp with out of state schools that don't have access to enough elite recruits in state (i.e. Auburn/Tennessee/Kansas State/Oklahoma/Michigan/etc.). If those camps took place, it would take time to have a significant negative effect on LSU's recruiting, but, once that happens Tulane would have a much better shot at quality recruits.

On a side note, I'm not sure that Harbaugh will win the B1G anytime soon. He's a great coach and everything, but he seems to frequently choke during big games in the regular season, Franklin/Meyer may be consistently better B1G West coaches overall, and there may be a resurgence in the East.

Harbaugh's schtick has a limited shelf life, he wears people out - even for the 19-year-old starry eyes.



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby wave97 » Tue May 09, 2017 8:05 pm

RobertM320 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:
GreenPuddleSplash wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Well, it's finally happened. I'm not sure whether it's a victory or a loss.

http://www.nola.com/tulane/index.ssf/20 ... obile_home


I wonder what made LSWHO change their tune? They went from we want nothing to do with you to hey let's cohost a football camp... I don't know what it is, but something feels off....


It seems obvious to me that they'd rather co-host with us than have Michigan doing so in their back yard. Am I missing something?


That was exactly my thought. I'd guarantee Orgeron made the call to us.

I like Ed, Matt & Dave.



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby GreenLantern » Tue May 09, 2017 8:40 pm

Think of the time when you were a freshman in high school. Remember that girl who was homecoming queen and most beautiful...the alpha chick who was first at everything and was the one you daydreamed about when you took the hand lotion to the bathroom. The same girl that wouldn't bother to look your way when she passed you in the hallway surrounded by the football studs. To your amazement and delight, one day she approaches you and asks *gasp* if she can come to your house after school. Confounded with erotic thoughts and the thrill of being welcomed into such a desirable and elite social circle, you ask "Just you and me....at my house.......alone???". She replies "of course not silly, I'm going to ask all of my friends on the football team to join me there". Confused and crestfallen, you realize it is not you that is the object of her interest and affection.

I'll leave it to you to decide who is LSU and who is Tulane in this little allegory.



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby winwave » Tue May 09, 2017 8:45 pm

DrBox wrote:if Harbaugh wasn't coming, and Michigan was double booked, then this is better. We'll see how it goes. WE don't need to participate in one of those LSU/La @ Lafayette/Nichols deals on LSU's campus.
WE aren't where we are because we are losing players to ULL and ULM. la Tech has good players, but we rarely go after the same players. WE are losing players to Houston, Memphis, the Arizonas, Kansas, etc.
Houston holding camp here isn't good for us, but nothing that we could or should do about it.


+1


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby winwave » Tue May 09, 2017 8:51 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
LSU-MD wrote:
HoustonWave wrote:
TURVS71 wrote:I'm sorry but the way and many times that school has F'd us, I don't see the reason to do ANY joint venture with them....


I tend to agree with this. What we should do is take Coach O's quote about the "need to protect Louisiana", and show it to every Big XII and ACC school. I would like to see us rotate camps with different Big XII schools every year. Eventually that might get us an inside track with the Big XII, or whatever league succeeds it. If LSU wants to work with us to "protect" Louisiana, then let them go all the way and not only lift their barriers, but sponsor us for readmission into SEC--which the rest of the SEC would love.


1. Why would the rest of the SEC love Tulane being readmitted to the SEC? The only way the SEC expands again is if adding the school(s) puts a lot of $$$ in the SEC schools pockets, and Tulane does not meet that criteria.

2. I could see why you would want to be in the ACC, but why on earth would anyone want to be in the Big 12? Last year's expansion mess proved that UT and OU have differing opinions about the future of the conference and that the conference will more than likely dissolve when its GOR expires.


The Big 12 has some issues, but, in most metrics, it's conference #3 (attendance, media rights payouts per team, etc.). Last season was a particularly bad year for the conference in terms of regular season football OOC game and NFL draft performance, but, given the moves in the offseason, the 2017 version of the Big 12 will - have 50% of the conference in the preseason top 25 (higher than any other conference), have the best collection of coaches in football the conference has had in a long time, etc. All of that ignores Mens basketball (top 2 conference), Womens basketball, or Mens baseball.

That sure doesn't sound like a conference that no one wants to be in.


Well said zombie.


It's the facilities stupid!

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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby HoustonWave » Wed May 10, 2017 11:45 am

winwave wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
LSU-MD wrote:
HoustonWave wrote:
TURVS71 wrote:I'm sorry but the way and many times that school has F'd us, I don't see the reason to do ANY joint venture with them....


I tend to agree with this. What we should do is take Coach O's quote about the "need to protect Louisiana", and show it to every Big XII and ACC school. I would like to see us rotate camps with different Big XII schools every year. Eventually that might get us an inside track with the Big XII, or whatever league succeeds it. If LSU wants to work with us to "protect" Louisiana, then let them go all the way and not only lift their barriers, but sponsor us for readmission into SEC--which the rest of the SEC would love.


1. Why would the rest of the SEC love Tulane being readmitted to the SEC? The only way the SEC expands again is if adding the school(s) puts a lot of $$$ in the SEC schools pockets, and Tulane does not meet that criteria.

2. I could see why you would want to be in the ACC, but why on earth would anyone want to be in the Big 12? Last year's expansion mess proved that UT and OU have differing opinions about the future of the conference and that the conference will more than likely dissolve when its GOR expires.


The Big 12 has some issues, but, in most metrics, it's conference #3 (attendance, media rights payouts per team, etc.). Last season was a particularly bad year for the conference in terms of regular season football OOC game and NFL draft performance, but, given the moves in the offseason, the 2017 version of the Big 12 will - have 50% of the conference in the preseason top 25 (higher than any other conference), have the best collection of coaches in football the conference has had in a long time, etc. All of that ignores Mens basketball (top 2 conference), Womens basketball, or Mens baseball.

That sure doesn't sound like a conference that no one wants to be in.


Well said zombie.


We know 14 schools would like to join it. And we also know that it has been LSU that has vetoed past opportunities for Tulane to be readmitted to the SEC. Tulane and N.O could add as much revenue as a Missouri, and at the same time would "protect" Louisiana recruiting turf. The other SEC schools might also like the fact that LSU would lose their inherent advantage being the only P5 school in Louisiana--especially the Alabama and Mississippi schools.


Tulane is the University of Louisiana

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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby GreenPuddleSplash » Wed May 10, 2017 12:17 pm

winwave wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
LSU-MD wrote:
HoustonWave wrote:
TURVS71 wrote:I'm sorry but the way and many times that school has F'd us, I don't see the reason to do ANY joint venture with them....


I tend to agree with this. What we should do is take Coach O's quote about the "need to protect Louisiana", and show it to every Big XII and ACC school. I would like to see us rotate camps with different Big XII schools every year. Eventually that might get us an inside track with the Big XII, or whatever league succeeds it. If LSU wants to work with us to "protect" Louisiana, then let them go all the way and not only lift their barriers, but sponsor us for readmission into SEC--which the rest of the SEC would love.


1. Why would the rest of the SEC love Tulane being readmitted to the SEC? The only way the SEC expands again is if adding the school(s) puts a lot of $$$ in the SEC schools pockets, and Tulane does not meet that criteria.

2. I could see why you would want to be in the ACC, but why on earth would anyone want to be in the Big 12? Last year's expansion mess proved that UT and OU have differing opinions about the future of the conference and that the conference will more than likely dissolve when its GOR expires.


The Big 12 has some issues, but, in most metrics, it's conference #3 (attendance, media rights payouts per team, etc.). Last season was a particularly bad year for the conference in terms of regular season football OOC game and NFL draft performance, but, given the moves in the offseason, the 2017 version of the Big 12 will - have 50% of the conference in the preseason top 25 (higher than any other conference), have the best collection of coaches in football the conference has had in a long time, etc. All of that ignores Mens basketball (top 2 conference), Womens basketball, or Mens baseball.

That sure doesn't sound like a conference that no one wants to be in.


Well said zombie.



To be fair 10.5/12 schools are in the middle of no where, they have nothing better to do than watch B12 games. (I gave Austin +1 for our friend Golf and .5 for Ft. Worth) :mrgreen:



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby Wavetime » Wed May 10, 2017 4:57 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:I consider it a loss. I'd much rather have Michigan coaches on our campus than LSU coaches. At the same time, it may mean that the Tulane staff feels more Louisiana kids would rather be evaluated by Ed Orgeron and Co. than Jim Harbaugh and Co. My bet is LSU is hunting for a coach once again in 3 years, and Harbaugh will win a national championship in that timeframe.


I think I agree with some of this. It would be best for Tulane to weaken LSU's stranglehold on Louisiana recruits at all costs - even if that means hosting more camp with out of state schools that don't have access to enough elite recruits in state (i.e. Auburn/Tennessee/Kansas State/Oklahoma/Michigan/etc.). If those camps took place, it would take time to have a significant negative effect on LSU's recruiting, but, once that happens Tulane would have a much better shot at quality recruits.

On a side note, I'm not sure that Harbaugh will win the B1G anytime soon. He's a great coach and everything, but he seems to frequently choke during big games in the regular season, Franklin/Meyer may be consistently better B1G West coaches overall, and there may be a resurgence in the East.



Did you see the Michigan/Ohio St. game last year? Michigan, in my opinion, was the better team and had Ohio St. beat until the refs got in the way.



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby ajcalhoun » Wed May 10, 2017 5:08 pm

HoustonWave wrote:And we also know that it has been LSU that has vetoed past opportunities for Tulane to be readmitted to the SEC.
What past opportunities are you talking about? Do you have a link? I don't doubt that LSU would veto us if it could veto us. They'd be crazy not to. I just don't believe they were ever given the opportunity.
HoustonWave wrote: Tulane and N.O could add as much revenue as a Missouri
Hardly. The SEC already owns N.O. Read a local paper, watch local TV, or listen to local radio.
HoustonWave wrote:and at the same time would "protect" Louisiana recruiting turf. The other SEC schools might also like the fact that LSU would lose their inherent advantage being the only P5 school in Louisiana--especially the Alabama and Mississippi schools.
And be more competition to the other SEC schools for the Louisiana talent? All we'd be is another mouth to feed. I think any "Tulane to the SEC" talk is as Green Glasses delusional as possible. Im dying to hear about these "past opportunities."


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby golfnut69 » Wed May 10, 2017 5:25 pm

ajcalhoun wrote:
HoustonWave wrote:And we also know that it has been LSU that has vetoed past opportunities for Tulane to be readmitted to the SEC.
What past opportunities are you talking about? Do you have a link? I don't doubt that LSU would veto us if it could veto us. They'd be crazy not to. I just don't believe they were ever given the opportunity.
HoustonWave wrote: Tulane and N.O could add as much revenue as a Missouri
Hardly. The SEC already owns N.O. Read a local paper, watch local TV, or listen to local radio.
HoustonWave wrote:and at the same time would "protect" Louisiana recruiting turf. The other SEC schools might also like the fact that LSU would lose their inherent advantage being the only P5 school in Louisiana--especially the Alabama and Mississippi schools.
And be more competition to the other SEC schools for the Louisiana talent? All we'd be is another mouth to feed. I think any "Tulane to the SEC" talk is as Green Glasses delusional as possible. Im dying to hear about these "past opportunities."



AJ...I agree...talk of Tulane and the SEC is a pipe dream...Tulane brings zero to the table, the TV market is already SEC...NOLA get the tourist dollar from LSU games, most do not stay in BR...Tulane's only hope is the Big 12 actually stays together and needs to expand it geographic footprint, first up is Cincy because of WVU...after that it is a crap shoot...Colorado State...Houston...Tulane...the Florida Schools...I do not see the Big 10 coming as far south as NOLA or the ACC expanding any further west than it is now....LSU, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Arkansas would all veto Tulane into the SEC


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby DfromCT » Wed May 10, 2017 7:10 pm

1. When has Tulane tried to get back into the SEC? I don't doubt that LSU would try to block us, but I've never heard that we were ambitious enough about our Athletics Program to try to get back in. I'm asking a legit question, not stating that it hasn't happened.

2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.

3. Say what you want about Harbaugh, but he's won everywhere he's coached, and has turned around every program he's coached very quickly. He had ZERO Louisiana players on his roster last year. Recruiting in Louisiana is always strong, but the PER CAPITA thing is way overrated. If I were Harbaugh and Tulane pulled the rug, I'd go immediately to UL-L and/or LaTech and flip the bird to both LSU and Tulane.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby Wavetime » Wed May 10, 2017 9:00 pm

DfromCT wrote:1. When has Tulane tried to get back into the SEC? I don't doubt that LSU would try to block us, but I've never heard that we were ambitious enough about our Athletics Program to try to get back in. I'm asking a legit question, not stating that it hasn't happened.

2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.

3. Say what you want about Harbaugh, but he's won everywhere he's coached, and has turned around every program he's coached very quickly. He had ZERO Louisiana players on his roster last year. Recruiting in Louisiana is always strong, but the PER CAPITA thing is way overrated. If I were Harbaugh and Tulane pulled the rug, I'd go immediately to UL-L and/or LaTech and flip the bird to both LSU and Tulane.



I can't provide any source, but I did read 2 articles about Tulane trying to get back into the SEC. Now, they may be true or they may have just been rhetoric, but I did read them. The first article mentioned Mike Slive talking to a SEC AD questioning our *Tulane's_ commitment. He basically said that we have not put the resources into the athletic dept. The other article mentioned that many AD's wanted us instead of Missourii and that LSU blocked it.

Like I've said before, I can prowl the internet and try and find the articles, and I'm no insider. However, I do believe that if we would have put the resources in we'd either be back in the SEC or definitely in another P5 conference.



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby DfromCT » Wed May 10, 2017 9:33 pm

Wavetime wrote:
I can't provide any source, but I did read 2 articles about Tulane trying to get back into the SEC. Now, they may be true or they may have just been rhetoric, but I did read them. The first article mentioned Mike Slive talking to a SEC AD questioning our *Tulane's_ commitment. He basically said that we have not put the resources into the athletic dept. The other article mentioned that many AD's wanted us instead of Missourii and that LSU blocked it.

Like I've said before, I can prowl the internet and try and find the articles, and I'm no insider. However, I do believe that if we would have put the resources in we'd either be back in the SEC or definitely in another P5 conference.


If Cowen had followed up the 1998 season with hiring Rich Rod, and then investing in the program (which had a fan base at that time, and could have grown quickly had we hired RR) we would have been in the Big 12, probably ahead of TCU. But had Cowen read the tea leaves correctly, we might have had an opportunity to get into SEC or ACC. I think the ACC is a better fit academically, SEC better for travel purposes and rivalries. I really don't think the SEC needed Tulane, but if we had a few good seasons in a row when they added A&M and Missou, we might have had a shot. We'd still be in the Dome with an OCS practice bubble. But we'd have at least 40,000/game if not more playing an SEC schedule. It's all a pipe dream, built on if's and butts, I realize.

I hate to bring it back to Cow/Dick, but 1998 was as big an opportunity as the University has ever been handed on a silver platter. And boy did Cowen f#ck that up.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu May 11, 2017 7:20 am

DfromCT wrote:2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.


In what way is the Big 12 below the PAC?



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby DfromCT » Thu May 11, 2017 11:46 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.


In what way is the Big 12 below the PAC?


Competitiveness in the two major sports. Money distributed to each conference member, higher TV package. If it's about the money, the Big 12 is fourth. If you want to throw in competitiveness, the ACC jumps over the Big 12. But the PAC has more money distributed to it's membership than the Big 12 does. In 2014 the Big 12 was 5th, in 2015 the Big 12 was 4th, but last year the PAC generated more $$ to it's members than the Big 12 did.

Source: Forbes.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby mbawavefan12 » Thu May 11, 2017 11:54 am

DfromCT wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.


In what way is the Big 12 below the PAC?


Competitiveness in the two major sports. Money distributed to each conference member, higher TV package. If it's about the money, the Big 12 is fourth. If you want to throw in competitiveness, the ACC jumps over the Big 12. But the PAC has more money distributed to it's membership than the Big 12 does. In 2014 the Big 12 was 5th, in 2015 the Big 12 was 4th, but last year the PAC generated more $$ to it's members than the Big 12 did.

Source: Forbes.


Other factors, I'd argue. The PAC is far more stable than the B12 and in much larger markets that they have a larger share of. In addition, the PAC has a far great academic reputation and research dollars. This results in shared opportunities for research grants and research applications. The higher academics also may result in the ability of alums to give to the school. One thing the Forbes article did not include are alumni contributions.



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu May 11, 2017 12:50 pm

DfromCT wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.


In what way is the Big 12 below the PAC?


Competitiveness in the two major sports. Money distributed to each conference member, higher TV package. If it's about the money, the Big 12 is fourth. If you want to throw in competitiveness, the ACC jumps over the Big 12. But the PAC has more money distributed to it's membership than the Big 12 does. In 2014 the Big 12 was 5th, in 2015 the Big 12 was 4th, but last year the PAC generated more $$ to it's members than the Big 12 did.

Source: Forbes.


That's a lot of assertions without explicit sources. I'm going to try to tackle this in a list format for the sake of clarity.

1. Average total athletic department revenue per conference member - This 2016 article indicates that the average Big 12 teams brings in $103M which is good for #3 out of the major conferences, while the average PAC12 team brings in $81M, which is good for #5 out of the major conferences with the ACC sitting $13M on average below the Big 12. Further, the 4 power 5 teams with the lowest revenues are all PAC12 teams, the Big 12 has the highest profit per team aside from the SEC, and PAC12 is the only conference with an average net loss.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal ... pac-12-acc
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

2. Average football attendance per conference member - This 2016 article indicates that the average Big 12 team had an attendance of 57,238 in 2016, which was good for #3 of the major conferences. The PAC12 averaged 50,111 for #4 with the ACC bringing up the rear with under 50,000.
http://www.cbssports.com/college-footba ... ight-year/
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

3. Average conference payout - This 2016 Forbes article indicates that the Big 12 members received a payout from the conference for more revenue for non-tv and tv rights for just their 1st and 2nd tier tv rights than both ACC ($9M less than Big 12 without 3rd tier rights!) and the PAC12 ($1M less than Big 12 without 3rd tier rights!) did for their non-tv and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier tv rights. Further, the second Forbes article indicates that the Big 12 received a higher per team payout from the playoff structure during the 2016-2017 season than the PAC12 along with a higher total revenue and a higher per team payout than the ACC did and the Big 12 didn't even have a representative in the Playoff itself when both the PAC12 and ACC did.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith ... 15557c6ecf
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristidosh ... 56ecf0572d
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

4. Basketball - In terms of NCAA tournament bids, the Big 12 had 6 in 2017, 7 in 2016, 7 in 2015, and 7 in 2014; the PAC12 has had 4 in 2017, 7 in 2016, 4 in 2015, and 6 in 2014; and the ACC had 9 in 2017, 7 in 2016, 6 for 2015, and 6 in 2014. As a percentage of the conference, the Big 12 averages 67.5% over the last 4 years, the PAC averages 43.5%, and the ACC averages 49.5%.
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

5. Football - I'm trying to find historical S&P ratings, but I'm running into issues with finding them, but the Big 12 likely will not have come in 1st among the PAC12, the ACC, and the Big 12 in this category. However, that being said, going into the upcoming 2017 season, 80% of the Big 12 coaches have either won an FBS conference title as head coach (7) or appeared in an FBS conference title game as head coach (1) during the 2011-2016 period, another coach was the OC for an FBS team that appeared in an FBS conference title game during that period, and the last coach is currently raiding Louisiana recruits. That speaks for itself.
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Not Big 12, but the future seems bright, especially with 50% of the conference likely to be in the preseason top 25 and no other conference matching/exceeding that.

Side note - Gauging the strength of a conference through titles is a logical fallacy. A great way to avoid having go to deep into an analysis on that is through an example, and a great example of this was Western Michigan in 2016 - did WMU getting the G5 access bid prove that the MAC is the best G5 conference? No, and that's why national titles don't prove the strength of a conference. It shows other things, but those things are outside the scope of this discussion.



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby tpstulane » Thu May 11, 2017 2:57 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.


In what way is the Big 12 below the PAC?


Competitiveness in the two major sports. Money distributed to each conference member, higher TV package. If it's about the money, the Big 12 is fourth. If you want to throw in competitiveness, the ACC jumps over the Big 12. But the PAC has more money distributed to it's membership than the Big 12 does. In 2014 the Big 12 was 5th, in 2015 the Big 12 was 4th, but last year the PAC generated more $$ to it's members than the Big 12 did.

Source: Forbes.


That's a lot of assertions without explicit sources. I'm going to try to tackle this in a list format for the sake of clarity.

1. Average total athletic department revenue per conference member - This 2016 article indicates that the average Big 12 teams brings in $103M which is good for #3 out of the major conferences, while the average PAC12 team brings in $81M, which is good for #5 out of the major conferences with the ACC sitting $13M on average below the Big 12. Further, the 4 power 5 teams with the lowest revenues are all PAC12 teams, the Big 12 has the highest profit per team aside from the SEC, and PAC12 is the only conference with an average net loss.
http://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal ... pac-12-acc
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

2. Average football attendance per conference member - This 2016 article indicates that the average Big 12 team had an attendance of 57,238 in 2016, which was good for #3 of the major conferences. The PAC12 averaged 50,111 for #4 with the ACC bringing up the rear with under 50,000.
http://www.cbssports.com/college-footba ... ight-year/
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

3. Average conference payout - This 2016 Forbes article indicates that the Big 12 members received a payout from the conference for more revenue for non-tv and tv rights for just their 1st and 2nd tier tv rights than both ACC ($9M less than Big 12 without 3rd tier rights!) and the PAC12 ($1M less than Big 12 without 3rd tier rights!) did for their non-tv and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier tv rights. Further, the second Forbes article indicates that the Big 12 received a higher per team payout from the playoff structure during the 2016-2017 season than the PAC12 along with a higher total revenue and a higher per team payout than the ACC did and the Big 12 didn't even have a representative in the Playoff itself when both the PAC12 and ACC did.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith ... 15557c6ecf
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristidosh ... 56ecf0572d
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

4. Basketball - In terms of NCAA tournament bids, the Big 12 had 6 in 2017, 7 in 2016, 7 in 2015, and 7 in 2014; the PAC12 has had 4 in 2017, 7 in 2016, 4 in 2015, and 6 in 2014; and the ACC had 9 in 2017, 7 in 2016, 6 for 2015, and 6 in 2014. As a percentage of the conference, the Big 12 averages 67.5% over the last 4 years, the PAC averages 43.5%, and the ACC averages 49.5%.
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Big 12

5. Football - I'm trying to find historical S&P ratings, but I'm running into issues with finding them, but the Big 12 likely will not have come in 1st among the PAC12, the ACC, and the Big 12 in this category. However, that being said, going into the upcoming 2017 season, 80% of the Big 12 coaches have either won an FBS conference title as head coach (7) or appeared in an FBS conference title game as head coach (1) during the 2011-2016 period, another coach was the OC for an FBS team that appeared in an FBS conference title game during that period, and the last coach is currently raiding Louisiana recruits. That speaks for itself.
Winner between PAC/ACC/Big12: Not Big 12, but the future seems bright, especially with 50% of the conference likely to be in the preseason top 25 and no other conference matching/exceeding that.

Side note - Gauging the strength of a conference through titles is a logical fallacy. A great way to avoid having go to deep into an analysis on that is through an example, and a great example of this was Western Michigan in 2016 - did WMU getting the G5 access bid prove that the MAC is the best G5 conference? No, and that's why national titles don't prove the strength of a conference. It shows other things, but those things are outside the scope of this discussion.

Good work Abe. Thx!


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby HoustonWave » Thu May 11, 2017 3:24 pm

Wavetime wrote:
DfromCT wrote:1. When has Tulane tried to get back into the SEC? I don't doubt that LSU would try to block us, but I've never heard that we were ambitious enough about our Athletics Program to try to get back in. I'm asking a legit question, not stating that it hasn't happened.

2. The Big 12 is the fourth, if not fifth best of the P5. There's no way it's ahead of the PAC-12 (or whatever number follows PAC these days.) And there's a very reasonable argument that it's behind the ACC, which has the defending national champions in the two sports that matter most by a LONG way.

3. Say what you want about Harbaugh, but he's won everywhere he's coached, and has turned around every program he's coached very quickly. He had ZERO Louisiana players on his roster last year. Recruiting in Louisiana is always strong, but the PER CAPITA thing is way overrated. If I were Harbaugh and Tulane pulled the rug, I'd go immediately to UL-L and/or LaTech and flip the bird to both LSU and Tulane.



I can't provide any source, but I did read 2 articles about Tulane trying to get back into the SEC. Now, they may be true or they may have just been rhetoric, but I did read them. The first article mentioned Mike Slive talking to a SEC AD questioning our *Tulane's_ commitment. He basically said that we have not put the resources into the athletic dept. The other article mentioned that many AD's wanted us instead of Missourii and that LSU blocked it.

Like I've said before, I can prowl the internet and try and find the articles, and I'm no insider. However, I do believe that if we would have put the resources in we'd either be back in the SEC or definitely in another P5 conference.


I was told directly by Tulane asst. athletic directors that there were two different episodes where readmission of Tulane into the SEC was discussed. First was in the early 90's, at the same time that many other conferences were starting to realign. The second, was either in the late 90's or early 2000's, when there was some back channeling with Big 12, ACC and SEC. Travis Goff told me that at that time we had a preference for the ACC, but thought that the SEC might make a pitch first--Tulane was geared to take the first offer made by any BCS conference. In that later discussion, he also mentioned that many of the other SEC schools were quite positive about the idea of bringing Tulane back in. In either case, who knows if we would have made it to home plate, but Travis said LSU made it clear that they would keep the discussion from getting to first base. I'm not as familiar with the Slive discussions, though I have heard about his comments, but didn't know if his comments ever represented a real consideration, or just him using them to chastise Tulane (deservedly so).

With the ACC bringing in Louisville, whatever chances we've had of an ACC invite have now diminished. Louisville has routinely and historically done all it could to put the screws to Tulane--I have little doubt they will again if there is ever any discussion about Tulane and the ACC. We can agree, that Cowen definitely squandered the best opportunity in the late 90's.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby nawlinspete » Thu May 11, 2017 4:42 pm

Does anyone know at what level the decisions re camping with Michigan and/or LSU were made ?

If only our coaches were involved we again made poor decisions.

AD Dannen should have been handling all negotiations.

Any opportunity to co host with Michigan should have never been cancelled, even if Harbaugh was not there. We need any and all publicity and hype available. Bad decision to cancel.

As for our friends in Red Stick if in fact they wanted so badly to co host with us we should have played hardball and said "fine, Michigan June 9 and you June 16." If LSU still objected we should have negotiated a return to annual football and mens basketball games and at least broacherd the subject of our becoming the 15th or 16th member of the SEC with Baton Rouge aggressively sponsoring our application when the BIG XII implodes at the end of its television contracts.

Shame on us and AD Dannen lyong down on the job and settling for second class status in our own stadium on June 16.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby DfromCT » Thu May 11, 2017 7:31 pm

HoustonWave wrote:We can agree, that Cowen definitely squandered the best opportunity in the late 90's.


I don't have the energy to argue for/against the Big 12, though I'm sure if I put enough effort I could easily find articles and sources, such as the Forbes article from 2015 that showed the Big 12 as the 5th of the P5 in terms of TV, Bowl and NCAA tournament money generated per school. It's just not worth it to me to carry the argument further. Bleacher Report is not exactly a great source, either. So despite my gut saying it aint so, and predicting that the Big 12 will either be the first to grow to 16 or it will fold, I'll concede it's the 4th of the P5.

I think we all agree the Cowen screwed us out of the P5 in the late 90's by taking on the BCS and trying to run the program on the cheap when we could have leveraged Bowden/Rodriguez into a 5 year run that would have had us positioned to get one of the bids our C-USA (which was closer to the 7th "P" at the time than AAC is now) brothers now enjoy.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu May 18, 2017 12:06 pm

Maybe Tulane was bullied into not camping with Michigan - this article indicates that LSU flexed its muscles to keep out out of state programs. Even if it did, I'm not sure why Tulane would cower from it given Tulane only signed two Louisiana the 2017 recruiting class, so it is not as if Tulane's Louisiana recruiting could be -that- much worse if Tulane was blacklisted by Louisiana high schools.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/20 ... obile_home

EDIT: This Sports Illustrated article about the LSU, Tulane, and Southeastern situation pretty revealing.

https://www.si.com/college-football/201 ... itter_sicr



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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby winwave » Thu May 18, 2017 12:55 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Maybe Tulane was bullied into not camping with Michigan - this article indicates that LSU flexed its muscles to keep out out of state programs. Even if it did, I'm not sure why Tulane would cower from it given Tulane only signed two Louisiana the 2017 recruiting class, so it is not as if Tulane's Louisiana recruiting could be -that- much worse if Tulane was blacklisted by Louisiana high schools.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/20 ... obile_home

EDIT: This Sports Illustrated article about the LSU, Tulane, and Southeastern situation pretty revealing.

https://www.si.com/college-football/201 ... itter_sicr


I posted earlier that an impeccable source said LSU was in the process of getting SLU to change their camps. There is no question that LSU did interfere in that case.


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Re: Tulane and LSU host FB camp in June

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Thu May 18, 2017 12:58 pm

winwave wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Maybe Tulane was bullied into not camping with Michigan - this article indicates that LSU flexed its muscles to keep out out of state programs. Even if it did, I'm not sure why Tulane would cower from it given Tulane only signed two Louisiana the 2017 recruiting class, so it is not as if Tulane's Louisiana recruiting could be -that- much worse if Tulane was blacklisted by Louisiana high schools.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/20 ... obile_home

EDIT: This Sports Illustrated article about the LSU, Tulane, and Southeastern situation pretty revealing.

https://www.si.com/college-football/201 ... itter_sicr


I posted earlier that an impeccable source said LSU was in the process of getting SLU to change their camps. There is no question that LSU did interfere in that case.


Darn it, Tulane. If Harbaugh was really coming to New Orleans as the Sports Illustrated article said he was, Tulane may have not have made the best decision here.



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