Ever since this day, I have looked on the "U" with scorn!

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IM42lane
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I hope that the NCAA gives Miami the same fate that it gave SMU in the 1980's.

It would make me sleep better at night.



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golfnut69
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there is no way in hell's green earth that the U gets the "death penalty"...maybe a 6 month probation of dealing with pawn shops ..but that is the max
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"Pete" Madere
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i'm sure it's just me. i'm a sucker for a good conspiracy theory. College football at it's highest level is a filthy, dirty sport. We know that's not changing. Tightning of academics means more cheating. Bigger $$$ at stake will mean more cheating. It's not going away. What I find a little strange is the the SEC has their own at the top of the NCAA. That in itself is not that big a deal. But since Emmert has taken his post, USC, Ohio St. and now Miami all have a fork in em. North Carolina took a shot, but was quickly shut down. Oregon and Boise are both being checked out. But Auburn can apparently buy a championship. lsu can "self report" their "minor" infractions and impose their own "punishment". Florida is pretty much known as the dirtiest of the dirty. Look at the arrest records.

I have no problem with USC and Ohio State being slapped. But why is the SEC allowed to run rampant with no consequences?

Call me crazy. But explain to me why the SEC is bulletproof?
golfnut69
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I remember listening to the game on the radio with my Dad...if I recall correctly, that loss cost Tulane a Bowl game
Be a Hero Today.... Adopt a Shelter Pet... The Beatles once sang "Can't Buy Me Love"... I disagree, unconditional Love can be bought, for the nominal adoption fee at your local Pet Shelter !
IM42lane
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Had Tulane won that game, the record would have been 7-4, and TU had an excellent chance of being invited to a bowl with that record. Had that occurred, it would have been 3 bowl appearances during the 4 years that I was a TU undergrad. Tulane appealed to the NCAA about the blatant mistake that was made, and those wisenheimers said that they could not take the win away from Miami because there was still time after Miami's winning TD for Tulane to come back and catch up to the Canes. I began to think of the NCAA right then as being the lamest excuse for a governing body that I ever witnessed.

Tulane also lost to L$U that year 9-3. QB Steve Foley completed a pass to a back out of the backfield, and he was stopped on the L$U 1 yard line as the game clock expired. One yard away from winning 10-9. I still sting from that one to this day.

golfnut69 wrote:I remember listening to the game on the radio with my Dad...if I recall correctly, that loss cost Tulane a Bowl game
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I was only three years old when that game was played, so obviously, I have no recollection of it. But the game is famous. I heard about it while growing up all the time.

There's actually another connection between Tulane and Miami. (don't shoot me) And that's attendance. Miami is a team that has won 5 national championships and never averaged a sell out. Their largest average attendance was in 2002 at 69,539, and that was the year following a national championship. Mostly their attendance has been in the 40s and 50s. I know, I know, Tulane should wish, right? But, again, Miami has won 5 national championships, with the most recent coming in 2001 (average attendance 46,162). If they had our losing record, they'd likely have our attendance numbers. Consider that 9 out of ten years they've won at least seven games. Plus they play a much more glamorous schedule than Tulane being in BCS conference. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that if Tulane played in BCS conference, and had won seven games or more for nine out of ten years including a national championship, that its attendance wouldn't be at least as good as Miami's -- or even better. From 1983 onward, a period in which Miami won its five national titles, it only averaged more than 60,000 fans three times, and it averaged under 50,000 17 times including three years in which its average attendance was under 40,000.

Miami historical attendance
Fred Dowler
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Interesting thought.

I believe that if it were Tulane in that situation the numbers would probably be roughly comparable.

Another smallish, private school in a city in the south.

The contention was made that Tulane's numbers would be better.

OK, why?

And, why, considering that metro New Orleans is not nearly as well populated as the whole south Florida megalopolis?
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
RWR
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Fred- you just refuse to accept how many Tulane fans are still out there . Winning will bring them back.
Fred Dowler
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And I don't see the NCAA handing down the so-called Death Penalty in this case.

It all sounds really sleazy but there seem to be a lot of things going on with this.

For one, the "accuser" is a convicted felon who also, I believe, is about ready to release his own sensational tell-all book about his life story.

For another, the accuser seems to have it in for some of the football players that he had contact with who seem to not want to have anything to do with him now -- and so he wants to make sure that everyone has to suffer.

The main thing, though, is that it's hard to see the NCAA punishing the Univ. of Miami that severely -- because such a move may well hasten the whole breakup of the organization with the top 50 or 60 programs going off in their own direction.

The general sports-viewing public believes that practically every "major" program does what this accuser said that he was doing, anyway.

The only thing that the general public would find that seriously reprehensible would be some kind of gambling scandal.

OTOH you have Pres. Cowen and Rick Dickson who are very proud that Tulane doesn't do all of these things and that thousands should be following Tulane just because they are that honorable.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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RWR wrote:Fred- you just refuse to accept how many Tulane fans are still out there . Winning will bring them back.
We already know that if the team doesn't win that there are only a very small handful who will come game after game and definitely no more than that.

It's a question of how much winning.

What I don't buy into is the idea that now in the 2010's with all of the games available on tv that there are that just a couple of 6-win or 7-win seasons playing a mostly lightweight schedule is going to generate a constant 35-40,000 attendance game after game no matter who the opponent is.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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JTLiuzza
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Fred Dowler wrote:Interesting thought.

I believe that if it were Tulane in that situation the numbers would probably be roughly comparable.

Another smallish, private school in a city in the south.

The contention was made that Tulane's numbers would be better.

OK, why?

And, why, considering that metro New Orleans is not nearly as well populated as the whole south Florida megalopolis?
You have the burden of proof backwards. To put forth that Tulane can never really draw well is a preposterous position anyway based on nothing more than speculation.

As I said in another thread, how about we try winning consistently and see how it shakes out? After all, winning consistently is what we're trying to do, right? So putting all the speculation to rest by winning consistently would not be outside of our normal goals. If we're not trying to win consistently, then we should either get leadership who will or get out of the game.
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JTLiuzza
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Fred Dowler wrote:OTOH you have Pres. Cowen and Rick Dickson who are very proud that Tulane doesn't do all of these things and that thousands should be following Tulane just because they are that honorable.
Fred I know you're not making a personal statement here on your opinion of Cowen's honor. But it seems to me that to anybody paying attention, that after that slimy closed-door attempt to kill a then 110 year football program in 2003 would be enough to convince anyone that any claims Cowen might have to being honorable are dubious at best (I would say laughable).
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1ndabag wrote:
Fred Dowler wrote:OTOH you have Pres. Cowen and Rick Dickson who are very proud that Tulane doesn't do all of these things and that thousands should be following Tulane just because they are that honorable.
Fred I know you're not making a personal statement here on your opinion of Cowen's honor. But it seems to me that to anybody paying attention, that after that slimy closed-door attempt to kill a then 110 year football program in 2003 would be enough to convince anyone that any claims Cowen might have to being honorable are dubious at best (I would say laughable).
I meant that the powers-who-are expect that the contingent who opposed Tulane dropping down in 2003, i.e. who want Tulane to stay in Div. 1, should place their $$ where their mouths and do so just because Tulane (the school and the program more than Cowen and Dickson personally although Cowen is definitely a publicity-seeker who has a CEO-sized ego) is so honorable and clean and embodies pure love-of-the-game amateurism and so on.

It's a stupid, naive policy, of course.

Now talk about honor. Call me cynical but I'm beginning to think that Cowen thinks that he will have retired and have washed his own hands of everything when the time comes 5-7 years from now and they've held onto this policy and the school really will be facing a crisis situation in which they won't be able to financially afford to keep going as Div. 1. He will just say "I told everyone that they had to support the program or else...."
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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JTLiuzza
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Fred Dowler wrote:Now talk about honor. Call me cynical but I'm beginning to think that Cowen thinks that he will have retired and have washed his own hands of everything when the time comes 5-7 years from now and they've held onto this policy and the school really will be facing a crisis situation in which they won't be able to financially afford to keep going as Div. 1. He will just say "I told everyone that they had to support the program or else...."
You're probably right but at that point when he's out of office his bs machine is effectively shut down and his lackeys amongst the fan base have nothing to say because they're too busy staring slack jawed at the carnage, the story behind the demise of TU football will enjoy the clarity of hindsight and Cowen will definitely be finally realized, universally, as the villain that he is in the whole ugly mess. Not solely, but he was the one who finally accomplished what too many of his predecessors could not.

But let's hope it doesn't come to that. I don't think it will. I think Tulane football will survive that goofball and his board but I admittedly am basing that on nothing but blind hope.

It's a heckuva topic to have to consider two weeks before football season when most other fans are optimistically looking forward to football. But, as Nunez would probably be quick to point out, at least we're not Miami. :roll:

For the record, I'm looking forward to football as well despite the seedy political underpinnings that is Tulane athletics. Those of us who are left have to be the most thick skinned fans in college football.
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1ndabag wrote:
Fred Dowler wrote:Interesting thought.

I believe that if it were Tulane in that situation the numbers would probably be roughly comparable.

Another smallish, private school in a city in the south.

The contention was made that Tulane's numbers would be better.

OK, why?

And, why, considering that metro New Orleans is not nearly as well populated as the whole south Florida megalopolis?
You have the burden of proof backwards. To put forth that Tulane can never really draw well is a preposterous position anyway based on nothing more than speculation.

As I said in another thread, how about we try winning consistently and see how it shakes out? After all, winning consistently is what we're trying to do, right? So putting all the speculation to rest by winning consistently would not be outside of our normal goals. If we're not trying to win consistently, then we should either get leadership who will or get out of the game.
Honestly, like I have been saying, every school in the country, be it Univ. of Miami or TCU or even LSU or whoever, in the 2010's is facing the same issue.

As opposed to how it was in the 1970's or 1980's, someone can watch just about whichever game that they want on tv and not have to buy a ticket, pay for parking, fight traffic and so on.

Moreover, this is something that's still evolving even right now right as we speak, with, for example, what the Univ. of Texas is doing.

It just seems like people think that all that Tulane needs to do is win a little tiny bit and presto all of a sudden attendance is going to jump up to how it was in the 1970's or early 1980's and I honestly don't quite see it that way, for reasons that I have stated.

And, yes, I'm just asking this question. Why, given the very great similarity between the two schools, Tulane and the Univ. of Miami, would Tulane, as the poster contended, and would they right now, as well, have all of this "potential" somehow well beyond what Univ. of Miami's historical following has been with Miami's sustained success and then with the Miami-Fort Lauderdale area having about 3 times the population of metro New Orleans?

I'm just saying that the two schools are very similar in a whole lot of ways and I'd fully expect Tulane to experience similar attendance, if they were to produce the same consistency of success.

Also, now if Tulane were to win games like Univ. of Miami has and have attendance like they have had, as I believe would happen, now where would the problem be?

I suppose I could say this: if you really want for Tulane to be able to stay in Div. 1 and be a viable, thriving entity in Div. 1 FBS football, fine, but you still have to be completely realistic about everything, harsh or not, and if people want to be standing up for the program pie-in-the-sky notions of things are just not going to do anything but probably prevent what really needs to be done from ever getting done.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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Fred Dowler wrote:
RWR wrote:Fred- you just refuse to accept how many Tulane fans are still out there . Winning will bring them back.
We already know that if the team doesn't win that there are only a very small handful who will come game after game and definitely no more than that.

It's a question of how much winning.

What I don't buy into is the idea that now in the 2010's with all of the games available on tv that there are that just a couple of 6-win or 7-win seasons playing a mostly lightweight schedule is going to generate a constant 35-40,000 attendance game after game no matter who the opponent is.
Fred - again it's like you're arguing w/yourself. No one is talking about 6-7 wins bringing back the fan base. As I said in the other thread we need to win 9-12 annually w/allowance for a 7 win year when we have graduated a lot of starters.
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Disclaimer: close family of mine have attended the Univ. of Miami. I do like them as a school and might well have gone there if not for Tulane.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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Fred Dowler wrote:
1ndabag wrote:
Fred Dowler wrote:Interesting thought.

I believe that if it were Tulane in that situation the numbers would probably be roughly comparable.

Another smallish, private school in a city in the south.

The contention was made that Tulane's numbers would be better.

OK, why?

And, why, considering that metro New Orleans is not nearly as well populated as the whole south Florida megalopolis?
You have the burden of proof backwards. To put forth that Tulane can never really draw well is a preposterous position anyway based on nothing more than speculation.

As I said in another thread, how about we try winning consistently and see how it shakes out? After all, winning consistently is what we're trying to do, right? So putting all the speculation to rest by winning consistently would not be outside of our normal goals. If we're not trying to win consistently, then we should either get leadership who will or get out of the game.
Honestly, like I have been saying, every school in the country, be it Univ. of Miami or TCU or even LSU or whoever, in the 2010's is facing the same issue.

As opposed to how it was in the 1970's or 1980's, someone can watch just about whichever game that they want on tv and not have to buy a ticket, pay for parking, fight traffic and so on.

Moreover, this is something that's still evolving even right now right as we speak, with, for example, what the Univ. of Texas is doing.

It just seems like people think that all that Tulane needs to do is win a little tiny bit and presto all of a sudden attendance is going to jump up to how it was in the 1970's or early 1980's and I honestly don't quite see it that way, for reasons that I have stated.

And, yes, I'm just asking this question. Why, given the very great similarity between the two schools, Tulane and the Univ. of Miami, would Tulane, as the poster contended, and would they right now, as well, have all of this "potential" somehow well beyond what Univ. of Miami's historical following has been with Miami's sustained success and then with the Miami-Fort Lauderdale area having about 3 times the population of metro New Orleans?

I'm just saying that the two schools are very similar in a whole lot of ways and I'd fully expect Tulane to experience similar attendance, if they were to produce the same consistency of success.

Also, now if Tulane were to win games like Univ. of Miami has and have attendance like they have had, as I believe would happen, now where would the problem be?

I suppose I could say this: if you really want for Tulane to be able to stay in Div. 1 and be a viable, thriving entity in Div. 1 FBS football, fine, but you still have to be completely realistic about everything, harsh or not, and if people want to be standing up for the program pie-in-the-sky notions of things are just not going to do anything but probably prevent what really needs to be done from ever getting done.
Again Fred do you pay attention to others post? No one is talking pie in the sky. Most of us have been banned from yogwf b/c we have said dramatic changes must be made. Your post might be fitting on yogwf but not here. We take it for granted here that if we want to get to that plateau of winning 9-12 games year in and year out dramatic changes need to take place. They talked the talk at the playbook meeting. After this football season if they are going to walk the walk. So Tulane's answer to us is coming very soon.
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And Tulane's answer is clearly that they're not the Univ. of Miami and that they're very proud that they're not and these days prouder than ever that they're not.

In the long run, I doubt that Miami will get punished that severely or as severely as some seem to be hoping.

I also doubt that whatever was going on was a whole lot different than what a lot of programs do.

Big-time college football never has been squeaky clean and never will be as long as there is big money to be made, which there is.

The lie is the NCAA's constant advertising that athletes are all just regular students and who will not be going pro in their sport (well, most athletes do fit that definition, just not athletes in the major revenue sports at the high-level Div. 1 level).

If they do punish the Univ. of Miami program very severely then look for the momentum to build for a different association that would only include roughly the top 60 programs.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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There won't be a split b/c they won't be able to schedule. Current BCS schools won't want to be the new punching bags. But hey if you think that little of college football just follow the real pros.
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Fred Dowler wrote: I also doubt that whatever was going on was a whole lot different than what a lot of programs do.

Big-time college football never has been squeaky clean and never will be as long as there is big money to be made, which there is.

The lie is the NCAA's constant advertising that athletes are all just regular students and who will not be going pro in their sport (well, most athletes do fit that definition, just not athletes in the major revenue sports at the high-level Div. 1 level).

If they do punish the Univ. of Miami program very severely then look for the momentum to build for a different association that would only include roughly the top 60 programs.
I can say my stepson has friends at LSU who have SEEN boosters walk into an apartment where Tiger football players live, drop a $5K roll of cash on the table, and walk out. Cheating is as simple as that. It's pretty impossible to stop.

As for the top 60+ programs creating their own association? It'll never happen. Because if its all about the money, what comes next? They'll start dropping non-revenue sports, because they cost money. When those students no longer get scholarships, everyone gets hurt. Then, they run into the issue of federal gender equity issues. It'll be a bigger mess than they realize.
"That mantra is the only consistent thing that never needs to ever change for the rest of this program’s existence because that is all that matters & as long as that keeps occurring, everything will handle itself" -- Nick Anderson
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RWR wrote:There won't be a split b/c they won't be able to schedule. Current BCS schools won't want to be the new punching bags. But hey if you think that little of college football just follow the real pros.
It isn't that I think that little of college football. Hardly at all.

I'm just against hypocrisy.

College football -- and to some extent college basketball, too -- is not the same animal as volleyball or tennis or track or even college baseball.

It's really more than anything a form of marketing. The pride of your state against the pride of my state, essentially.

And it's NEVER been pure love-of-the-game amateurism. If anything, "cheating" was even more rampant back in the really early days of the game than now given that things were still evolving back in the day and the game as a whole was pretty raw compared to how it is now.

Even "holy" Notre Dame was a notorious "renegade program" at one time. Army had their scandal in the 1950's. Navy's had some scandals in more recent years.

What's cheating supposed to be, anyway? I suspect that there's only about a small handful of programs out of the top 80 who aren't offering "inducements" of one kind or another and none of that is anything that wasn't happening eons ago, either.

Sure this is harsh to say so but if you want to get the benefit of calling yourself big-time, making the income, having the fan following then you hold your nose and you do what you have to do. It's just not going to work out to the positive any other way, and we see this at Tulane year after year -- and if you don't like operating that way, then fine, get out of it and then at least you're not a hypocrite or some naive fool.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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Fred Dowler wrote:
RWR wrote:There won't be a split b/c they won't be able to schedule. Current BCS schools won't want to be the new punching bags. But hey if you think that little of college football just follow the real pros.
It isn't that I think that little of college football. Hardly at all.

I'm just against hypocrisy.

College football -- and to some extent college basketball, too -- is not the same animal as volleyball or tennis or track or even college baseball.

It's really more than anything a form of marketing. The pride of your state against the pride of my state, essentially.

And it's NEVER been pure love-of-the-game amateurism. If anything, "cheating" was even more rampant back in the really early days of the game than now given that things were still evolving back in the day and the game as a whole was pretty raw compared to how it is now.

Even "holy" Notre Dame was a notorious "renegade program" at one time. Army had their scandal in the 1950's. Navy's had some scandals in more recent years.

What's cheating supposed to be, anyway? I suspect that there's only about a small handful of programs out of the top 80 who aren't offering "inducements" of one kind or another and none of that is anything that wasn't happening eons ago, either.

Sure this is harsh to say so but if you want to get the benefit of calling yourself big-time, making the income, having the fan following then you hold your nose and you do what you have to do. It's just not going to work out to the positive any other way, and we see this at Tulane year after year -- and if you don't like operating that way, then fine, get out of it and then at least you're not a hypocrite or some naive fool.
You've swallowed the Cowen kool aid that the only way to succeed is to cheat. Or as our beat writer might put it, it's either the Tulane model or Miami. I'm not quite as cynical.

There are numerous steps that we could take (laid out a billion times on this board) that do not amount to cheating and do not sacrifice institutional integrity but which would help tremendously towards building a respectable program, which we currently don't have and haven't had for some time.

How about we give those a try before we take the self-serving Cowen route of complaining about all the injustice that is college football and vowing not to sully ourselves by playing their sordid game? It's all bullcrap. And it's frankly an insult to all the schools who succeed on the field, educate young men, and stay out of trouble.

If college football is that bad from top to bottom as your post implies, why do you bother?
The second commandment has not been abrogated.
sader24
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I have a hard time imagining a booster walking into a player's apartment with 5k and dropping it on the table and walking out. I never saw anything that blatant and I knew a decent amount of football players when I was up there. I've heard about guys getting stuff, nothing even in the vicinity of what was going on at Miami. I've heard of guys getting helped out with cars, tv's, furniture, etc. Not once have I heard of someone walking into a room of college students and dropping 5K on a table. Just doesn't sound realistic to me up there.
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