Big XII Expansion

[golfnut69]

D- in addition to what TX and lurk said the media is more often wrong than right. They never acknowledge it when all is said and done.

and to quote Lou Holtz.... " When all is said and done, more will be said, than done "

[HoustonWave]

If Tulane is not invited, it will be because of its losing history and you are welcome to blaze away at those responsible for that.

I've been trying to say that a bit more politely, but some wearing Olive Green and Sky Blue glasses don't want to hear it. Funny how another poster, one that has a long history of support, and family support of Tulane Athletics, just posted three or four links to articles from the heart of Big XII country. None had Tulane as serious contenders for a bid. But some here are sure we're in if they expand to 14. The funniest angle I've read is the one that proclaimed "we've been planning this since 2011, it's a natural progression for Tulane to join the Big 12". Does the Big 12 feel the same way? If it does, I'm wrong, and I'll be happy to shout it from the highest mountain. We're a long shot, one with some chips to play, but a long shot, at best.

At the same time, the four "favorites" are not at all logical. From most articles I've read, BYU, Houston, Cinci, and UConn are the favorites. I can't see the Big 12 going both to BYU and UConn. Frankly, I don't think UConn is a good fit for the conference at all. Maybe that's where we come in...

We'll find out in about 8-10 weeks, Lets not keep this thread going for the duration. I can't wait for fall camp to open, and get some of winwave's awesome updates.

D- nobody's more of a realist about Tulane athletics than me. Many elsewhere tried to label me negative when we had you know who in charge of Tulane athletics. Time proved I was just being realistic. You can try and label those who see us having a real chance as only seeing things from green and blue glasses but we get the shortcomings. However we also see the positives and we also get that it's going to be the Presidents making the choices. We like our chances and have legitimate reasons for feeling that way and they have discussed here ad nauseam.

I can't wait to get out there and see them and hopefully the reports will be uplifting. Things I'm hearing give me hope that that will be the case.

Great post WW. Sums it all up really well.

[Aberzombie1892]

Apparently, over the last year, WSJ has performed calculations in order to gauge the football and basketball values of different programs, and Hook Em compiled and released the list of the most popular Big 12 expansion candidates. It looks like UConn, USF, and BYU are the only programs that have a total football and basketball value great than any of the current Big 12 teams (although UCF is close). ECU has the lowest value of the teams mentioned, and the difference between UConn and ECU is dramatic. Unfortunately, Tulane is not included.

http://www.hookem.com/2016/07/25/big-12 ... er-report/

[Fat Harry]

I was surprised when Tulane got the Big East invite, and will be pleasantly surprised if we get the Big XII invite. But I'm just not sure we are there yet.

[lurker123]

Apparently, over the last year, WSJ has performed calculations in order to gauge the football and basketball values of different programs, and Hook Em compiled and released the list of the most popular Big 12 expansion candidates. It looks like UConn, USF, and BYU are the only programs that have a total football and basketball value great than any of the current Big 12 teams (although UCF is close). ECU has the lowest value of the teams mentioned, and the difference between UConn and ECU is dramatic. Unfortunately, Tulane is not included.

http://www.hookem.com/2016/07/25/big-12 ... er-report/

No surprise. Per TD and all the other experts, our strengths are AAU status and the City of New Orleans (ground Zero of SEC territory which has taken Arkansas and then two other teams directly from Big XII.) We can at least plausibly say that we are positioned athletically to turn it around. So potential is there even if history belies it.

When you are losing a competition that you can't win, you change the measuring metrics to those where we run laps almost literally around the other folks. That's what Tulane is doing here. Will it work? All I can say is I'm glad the President's are voting and not the ADs or the talking heads who the only time they ever met a University President was when he handed them their diplomas.

[jonathanjoseph]

Football prowess won't be the only point of contention as the Big 12 mines candidates. Academics could be an underrated factor, especially if the league opts to expand by four.

Boren mentioned "academic standards" as one of the five core criteria the league will consider, along with competitiveness of athletic programs, fan base, access to media markets and overall reputation. That could bolster Tulane's dark-horse candidacy, while damaging South Florida's. Last week, ESPN reported the NCAA is investigating South Florida's men's basketball program on allegations of academic fraud.

As one industry insider and a Big 12 AD reiterated, the presidents will be making the call on which schools will be invited, and "academics could play a bigger role than you might think."

"We are looking for members that will grow over time as we grow, that will bring stability to the conference and that have a high top end, and will benefit from an affiliation with the schools that are currently in our conference," Bowlsby said. "It's important that they strengthen the family and we strengthen them."

"We're looking at those schools that not only have arrived competitively," Boren said immediately after the Big 12 vote, "but have a huge potential to improve their competitive capabilities by becoming members."

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... -expansion

[lurker123]

I was surprised when Tulane got the Big East invite, and will be pleasantly surprised if we get the Big XII invite. But I'm just not sure we are there yet.

Unlike WW, I don't think is a "do or die" decision about Tulane. However it is a transformative event. To use the football analogy, it's a 90 yard momentum changing TD bomb compared to a grind it out 20 play drive where lots of stuff could and does happen before you might score.

Danton had it right 225 years ago, "Il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace!"

At the same time we know as the other saying goes, "There is a fine line between audacity and idiocy."

[Aberzombie1892]

JJ, for the sake of debate, aren't BYU and UConn academics virtually on par with ours (using US News), and wouldn't those programs grow with a Big 12 invite the same way we would? The only difference would be they would be starting at a much better place and have a higher ceiling (mormon following for BYU and state flagship for UConn).

If the Big 12 did expand to 14 and did invite both BYU and UConn, it would be interesting to see who the other teams would be given the geographical split.

[winwave]

I was surprised when Tulane got the Big East invite, and will be pleasantly surprised if we get the Big XII invite. But I'm just not sure we are there yet.

Unlike WW, I don't think is a "do or die" decision about Tulane. However it is a transformative event. To use the football analogy, it's a 90 yard momentum changing TD bomb compared to a grind it out 20 play drive where lots of stuff could and does happen before you might score.

Danton had it right 225 years ago, "Il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace!"

At the same time we know as the other saying goes, "There is a fine line between audacity and idiocy."

Lurk- what I said was that if we don't get in and Willie Fritz doesn't win here our reputation as a coach killer will be cemented. If we don't get in but WF wins we'll still have a viable program. Others who had a good chance to get that G5 slot in the major bowls will not be in competition with us anymore as they will now be in a P5.

[HoustonWave]

Apparently, over the last year, WSJ has performed calculations in order to gauge the football and basketball values of different programs, and Hook Em compiled and released the list of the most popular Big 12 expansion candidates. It looks like UConn, USF, and BYU are the only programs that have a total football and basketball value great than any of the current Big 12 teams (although UCF is close). ECU has the lowest value of the teams mentioned, and the difference between UConn and ECU is dramatic. Unfortunately, Tulane is not included.

http://www.hookem.com/2016/07/25/big-12 ... er-report/

No surprise. Per TD and all the other experts, our strengths are AAU status and the City of New Orleans (ground Zero of SEC territory which has taken Arkansas and then two other teams directly from Big XII.) We can at least plausibly say that we are positioned athletically to turn it around. So potential is there even if history belies it.

When you are losing a competition that you can't win, you change the measuring metrics to those where we run laps almost literally around the other folks. That's what Tulane is doing here. Will it work? All I can say is I'm glad the President's are voting and not the ADs or the talking heads who the only time they ever met a University President was when he handed them their diplomas.

Precisely. UConn and the Florida schools may some current advantages over us, but what those programs can offer simply doesn't overcome the geography/travel problem that they pose. In less than five years, we could have a football program that can run circles around any of these schools, but the geography will never change. Academics, geography, N.O., and our new commitment to athletics, those are the variables that we have to keep pressing.

[winwave]

Apparently, over the last year, WSJ has performed calculations in order to gauge the football and basketball values of different programs, and Hook Em compiled and released the list of the most popular Big 12 expansion candidates. It looks like UConn, USF, and BYU are the only programs that have a total football and basketball value great than any of the current Big 12 teams (although UCF is close). ECU has the lowest value of the teams mentioned, and the difference between UConn and ECU is dramatic. Unfortunately, Tulane is not included.

http://www.hookem.com/2016/07/25/big-12 ... er-report/

No surprise. Per TD and all the other experts, our strengths are AAU status and the City of New Orleans (ground Zero of SEC territory which has taken Arkansas and then two other teams directly from Big XII.) We can at least plausibly say that we are positioned athletically to turn it around. So potential is there even if history belies it.

When you are losing a competition that you can't win, you change the measuring metrics to those where we run laps almost literally around the other folks. That's what Tulane is doing here. Will it work? All I can say is I'm glad the President's are voting and not the ADs or the talking heads who the only time they ever met a University President was when he handed them their diplomas.

Precisely. UConn and the Florida schools may some current advantages over us, but what those programs can offer simply doesn't overcome the geography/travel problem that they pose. In less than five years, we could have a football program that can run circles around any of these schools, but the geography will never change. Academics, geography, N.O., and our new commitment to athletics, those are the variables that we have to keep pressing.

Well stated.

[lurker123]

I was surprised when Tulane got the Big East invite, and will be pleasantly surprised if we get the Big XII invite. But I'm just not sure we are there yet.

Unlike WW, I don't think is a "do or die" decision about Tulane. However it is a transformative event. To use the football analogy, it's a 90 yard momentum changing TD bomb compared to a grind it out 20 play drive where lots of stuff could and does happen before you might score.

Danton had it right 225 years ago, "Il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace!"

At the same time we know as the other saying goes, "There is a fine line between audacity and idiocy."

Lurk- what I said was that if we don't get in and Willie Fritz doesn't win here our reputation as a coach killer will be cemented. If we don't get in but WF wins we'll still have a viable program. Others who had a good chance to get that G5 slot in the major bowls will not be in competition with us anymore as they will now be in a P5.

Thanks for clarification. Sorry I misread. I would spin it a little different. It would give us a reputation for a good coach to get out of Dodge ASAP. For those who have succeeded here, it has been a very good and very quick spring board: Think Pittman, Smith, Brown and Bowden. Some of the others have still enjoyed some success elsewhere after Tulane fired them so it's not totally a coach killing scene: Davis, Teevens and even Toledo.

I am not advocating recruiting coaches who are more likely to stay. I just think we should recognize that until we become a destination and not an opportunity, we will see ongoing job hopping. We simply need to make consecutive good hires which at least in football Tulane has not done in say 70+ years????!!!!

On edit: But in baseball we've done it four in a row extending over about 40 years. Let's it make five with Jewett and take the string to 50 years!

[winwave]

Lurk- none of those guys had success as HC's at the D1 level after being fired here. My point is that after all this down time if we don't win under WF our pool of candidates will always be underwhelming.

[Wave755]

I am not advocating recruiting coaches who are more likely to stay. I just think we should recognize that until we become a destination and not an opportunity, we will see ongoing job hopping. We simply need to make consecutive good hires which at least in football Tulane has not done in say 70+ years????!!!!

On edit: But in baseball we've done it four in a row extending over about 40 years. Let's it make five with Jewett and take the string to 50 years!

+1, if we had hired Infante in 1979 & RR in 1998, we would already be P5 right now. With the Fritz hire it would appear after 50 years we have "finally learned our lesson" in regard to coaching hires.

[lurker123]

I was surprised when Tulane got the Big East invite, and will be pleasantly surprised if we get the Big XII invite. But I'm just not sure we are there yet.

Unlike WW, I don't think is a "do or die" decision about Tulane. However it is a transformative event. To use the football analogy, it's a 90 yard momentum changing TD bomb compared to a grind it out 20 play drive where lots of stuff could and does happen before you might score.

Danton had it right 225 years ago, "Il nous faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace!"

At the same time we know as the other saying goes, "There is a fine line between audacity and idiocy."

Lurk- what I said was that if we don't get in and Willie Fritz doesn't win here our reputation as a coach killer will be cemented. If we don't get in but WF wins we'll still have a viable program. Others who had a good chance to get that G5 slot in the major bowls will not be in competition with us anymore as they will now be in a P5.

Thanks for clarification. Sorry I misread. I would spin it a little different. It would give us a reputation for a good coach to get out of Dodge ASAP. For those who have succeeded here, it has been a very good and very quick spring board: Think Pittman, Smith, Brown and Bowden. Some of the others have still enjoyed some success elsewhere after Tulane fired them so it's not totally a coach killing scene: Davis, Teevens and even Toledo.

I am not advocating recruiting coaches who are more likely to stay. I just think we should recognize that until we become a destination and not an opportunity, we will see ongoing job hopping. We simply need to make consecutive good hires which at least in football Tulane has not done in say 70+ years????!!!!

On double edit: But in baseball we've done it four in a row extending over about 50 years. Let's it make five with Jewett and take the string to 60 years!

[lurker123]

Lurk- none of those guys had success as HC's at the D1 level after being fired here. My point is that after all this down time if we don't win under WF our pool of candidates will always be underwhelming.

Friend, we're hitting it back and forth. Brown came here specifically over Switzer's advice. Bowden came because at his age he was not likely to ever get an immediately desirable HC job without corresponding experience. At each of those times the pool of candidates was underwhelming but we found good coaches who then leap frogged as soon as they could. I know: in same circumstances we've hired Wally English, Bob Toledo and CJ.

We got Fritz because of timing and because our AD understood contracts and coach recruiting and the University gave him the resources to execute. The pay for AAC coaches had exploded and guess what: Tulane was the only opening because the other slots filled so fast and Fritz saw a way to make a transformative leap of his own in his mid-fifties.

I agree 100% with you on the implications. Look at the difference between baseball and football. In the former, TD had a pool of truly outstanding resumes who wanted the job. Let's just say he had to go exploring in football and probably in basketball. He came back fully loaded but we both know that's a much harder recipe for success. In hiring like anything else, it's much better to be the employer in a buyer's market where the candidates are literally begging you for the job. No selling required.

[DfromCT]

I would spin it a little different. It would give us a reputation for a good coach to get out of Dodge ASAP. For those who have succeeded here, it has been a very good and very quick spring board: Think Pittman, Smith, Brown and Bowden. Some of the others have still enjoyed some success elsewhere after Tulane fired them so it's not totally a coach killing scene: Davis, Teevens and even Toledo.

I am not advocating recruiting coaches who are more likely to stay. I just think we should recognize that until we become a destination and not an opportunity, we will see ongoing job hopping. We simply need to make consecutive good hires which at least in football Tulane has not done in say 70+ years????!!!!

Where did Teevens or Toledo have success after they left Tulane? To my knowledge, Toledo never coached another game. Teevens has been a few other places and almost got run off during his second stint at Dartmouth, but seems to have righted the ship. How the heck Teevens ever got the Stanford job after failing miserably at Tulane is beyond me. His record at Dartmouth is approaching .500 but boy did he have some horrific seasons from 2005-2009, with 7 wins TOTAL in 4 years.

[nawlinspete]

I would spin it a little different. It would give us a reputation for a good coach to get out of Dodge ASAP. For those who have succeeded here, it has been a very good and very quick spring board: Think Pittman, Smith, Brown and Bowden. Some of the others have still enjoyed some success elsewhere after Tulane fired them so it's not totally a coach killing scene: Davis, Teevens and even Toledo.

I am not advocating recruiting coaches who are more likely to stay. I just think we should recognize that until we become a destination and not an opportunity, we will see ongoing job hopping. We simply need to make consecutive good hires which at least in football Tulane has not done in say 70+ years????!!!!

Where did Teevens or Toledo have success after they left Tulane? To my knowledge, Toledo never coached another game. Teevens has been a few other places and almost got run off during his second stint at Dartmouth, but seems to have righted the ship. How the heck Teevens ever got the Stanford job after failing miserably at Tulane is beyond me. His record at Dartmouth is approaching .500 but boy did he have some horrific seasons from 2005-2009, with 7 wins TOTAL in 4 years.

Toledo coached, as an assistant, at both New Mexico and San Diego State after being invited to leave by Tulane.

[nawlinspete]

In todays article on ESPN.com Jake Carter ranks adds as 1) Houston, 2) BYU, 3) Tulane and undetermined 4) possibly Connecticut, South Florida, Central Florida or Memphis.

Trotter is proclaiming the Academics are way more important than anyone in the press is understanding and that, reading between the lines Oklahoma will vote for Houston, Texas' first choice as long as Texas will vote for Tulane, Oklahoma's first choice.

From Jake Trotter's pen to...six more Tulane votes over and above Oklahoma and Texas.

[RobertM320]

In todays article on ESPN.com Jake Carter ranks adds as 1) Houston, 2) BYU, 3) Tulane and undetermined 4) possibly Connecticut, South Florida, Central Florida or Memphis.

Trotter is proclaiming the Academics are way more important than anyone in the press is understanding and that, reading between the lines Oklahoma will vote for Houston, Texas' first choice as long as Texas will vote for Tulane, Oklahoma's first choice.

From Jake Trotter's pen to...six more Tulane votes over and above Oklahoma and Texas.

I read the article, and nowhere in it do I see himspecifically rank the schools 1 to 4. Maybe I'm missing the article. Provide a link, please?

[golfnut69]

In todays article on ESPN.com Jake Carter ranks adds as 1) Houston, 2) BYU, 3) Tulane and undetermined 4) possibly Connecticut, South Florida, Central Florida or Memphis.

Trotter is proclaiming the Academics are way more important than anyone in the press is understanding and that, reading between the lines Oklahoma will vote for Houston, Texas' first choice as long as Texas will vote for Tulane, Oklahoma's first choice.

From Jake Trotter's pen to...six more Tulane votes over and above Oklahoma and Texas.

I read the article, and nowhere in it do I see himspecifically rank the schools 1 to 4. Maybe I'm missing the article. Provide a link, please?

Is the article you are both referencing ?
http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... -expansion

[RobertM320]

Nut,

That's the article I saw, and I see nothing in there that says Tulane is OU's first choice, or that he ranks us as 3rd choice. We just happen to be the third school he mentions, after Houston and BYU, and only to say we're a dark-horse.

[lurker123]

Nut,

That's the article I saw, and I see nothing in there that says Tulane is OU's first choice, or that he ranks us as 3rd choice. We just happen to be the third school he mentions, after Houston and BYU, and only to say we're a dark-horse.

Author repeatedly warns readers to not underestimate importance of academics. Pete then immediately demonstrated his PhD in Senator Boren mind-reading by saying this must mean OU will demand a TU inclusion in exchange for UH.

I can't believe I'm saying this but man do I hope Pete nailed this one.

[localvb]

Tulane's only hope is if the Big 12 holds off on expansion and I think they will. Football, M/W basketball and volleyball have to put some butts in the seats and win. Football has to win and Tulane has to fill the seats to make it happen before they decide to expand.

[jonathanjoseph]

Tulane's only hope is if the Big 12 holds off on expansion and I think they will. Football, M/W basketball and volleyball have to put some butts in the seats and win. Football has to win and Tulane has to fill the seats to make it happen before they decide to expand.

Well the one thing I know is to bet the "over" on whatever timeframe is expected, since the Big12 is known for its inability to act. Which makes the quick start I am hoping for/expecting all the more important. As much as everyone is being a bunch of debbie downers, Tulane starting 4-0 is more possible than most realize. I think we have a decent chance of starting 4-1, and that would be a very nice storyline going into a vote in October.