Scott Kushner BR Advocate article comes out on Saturday

[Fred Dowler]

The story with moving up conference-wise is and has always been quite simply "Can you go to some conference and beg to be invited with a decade of losing teams in the major sports programs and regular attendance and interest in the program that's very meager and, let's be honest, on a good day at a Div. I FCS level and otherwise down to a Div. II or Div. III level?"

No.

That's a guaranteed non-starter.

If the Big XII were to invite Tulane to join up tomorrow, can you imagine the ridicule and head-scratching in the national media? Let's be honest.

The programs that have moved up largely were able to do so because of winning programs and strong regular attendance.

The TU leadership knows that there is almost nothing that they have right now and can bring to the table in those key respects and there's nothing to talk about. That's just the basic fact of the matter. Nonetheless they're looking to cover their posteriors with as much double-talk as they can get away with.

[Dave breslin]

Thanks Scott for the article. There are a few questions I would like to ask. What is your personal opinion of Dickson and Cowen and do you think that, with their track record, other schools would have kept them employed? Many of us believe that they are the ones to have created the state of mediocracy while complaining about others who have advanced. Maybe it was exasperated by Katrina, but bottom line, they have bungled at too many times. Thanks again for the article and I hope you do a follow up in the future.

[jonathanjoseph]

I read the comments here and then the article. I think Scott did a professional job of covering the situation, it's difficult for a journalist to go on the attack as he must maintain relationships and be as neutral as possible. Some things may have been missed but all in all this is by far one of the better TU athletics article I have read. I appreciate Tammy's efforts, but she should take note of the fact that Scott actually spoke with the AD and pres to get some decent color. Now...

Scott,

I cannot tell you how much I respect the fact that you came here and posted your thoughts. You asked for questions:

1) As stated earlier, we have been told that more capital is being invested but have seen nothing real. The schedules across the board are on the cheap. If more is being spent then lets see the details? What, when, where etc.

2) My main issue with Cowen/Dickson is the complete failure as far as conference affiliation. Sustainability is about TV and BCS revenue and not tickets/concessions. In the past decade a long list of schools recognized this importance (USF, Louisville, Cincy, SMU, Memphis, UCF etc) yet the administration failed our university despite the fact that we are the only school in one of the best high school athletics city in the country, a top academic school, AAU and large endowment/history. So my question, they failed to recognize the importance of conference affiliation and now think they should just sit back and wait to see if anyone asks them to the dance. This is not the approach that all the previous schools utilized. So my long winded comment leads to this, why have you failed to recognize the changing landscape in college athletics, what are you doing to address this concern in the future. TU saw that first wave of teams leave over the last decade (USF, Cincy, Louisville) and saw how their move up in conference improved their athletics and academics, yet we DID NOTHING!!!!

3) This is more then just football, across the board in athletics we have seen spiraling results, the sort of which would not be tolerated
in any major D1 program. Cowen talks about accountability, well who is holding Cowen and especially Dickson accountable? Not to mention that as our athletics were failing, our academics was dropping as well!!!!

3) Where are they on new majors, student-athelete support, "athlete's village", JUCO, NCAA entrance standards etc. etc. Not talk but what are they actually doing.

My side notes:
1) I almost threw up in my mouth with this "Monday morning quarterbacking is wonderful, especially when you have no accountability,” Scott we are accountable to ourselves in so much as we need to protect the massive investments (time/$$$) we made in our degrees. What an arrogant a**hole comment that infuriates me. For many of us, investing tens of thousand or more in a degree is a much much much larger risk as an individual then any choice you would make. If you fail, you walk away with millions yet we are all here battling to protect our degrees day in and day out. Accountability, ha......just a reminder, the graduates of TU own this university not YOU. Here I was thinking that investing in a TU degree, donating to athletics/academics, teaching/mentoring other students and buying tickets actually provides me and others with accountability, thanks for clearing that up Scotty C.

2) "We are prepared to talk to any conference who would like to talk to us about joining,” Cowen said. “Our aspiration is to be in a conference that fits us best both academically and aspirations. We have never closed the door, and we are in constant conversations with them.

“So, I think anyone who thinks we aren’t open to discussion and talking with other leagues is naïve. I also think people are naïve if they think we should put a ‘For Sale’ sign in the newspaper. That’s not the way we operate, nor the way we should operate.”

Did he really just say that we are just going to sit back and hope for the best. Good god. Then to try to paint this as some sort of "For Sale" sign issue, what a bias and ignorant way to summarize the situation. Being proactive and approaching other conferences is not putting up a for sale sign, it's what schools like WVU, BC, Miami, Cuse, Pitt, Cincy, USF, A&M, Mizzou, Colorado, SMU, UCF do because they understand how important conference is to the health of the athletic program and to some degree the entire university. Cowen has dug himself such a deep hole because he constantly has something to say about student-athletes, Big East, ConfUSA, BCS etc so now he is lost in some sort of conference affiliation purgatory. My god his ego is large.
I apologize for the rant. ROLL WAVE!!!

Excellent post.

[mbawavefan12]

The story with moving up conference-wise is and has always been quite simply "Can you go to some conference and beg to be invited with a decade of losing teams in the major sports programs and regular attendance and interest in the program that's very meager and, let's be honest, on a good day at a Div. I FCS level and otherwise down to a Div. II or Div. III level?"

No.

That's a guaranteed non-starter.

If the Big XII were to invite Tulane to join up tomorrow, can you imagine the ridicule and head-scratching in the national media? Let's be honest.

The programs that have moved up largely were able to do so because of winning programs and strong regular attendance.

The TU leadership knows that there is almost nothing that they have right now and can bring to the table in those key respects and there's nothing to talk about. That's just the basic fact of the matter. Nonetheless they're looking to cover their posteriors with as much double-talk as they can get away with.

I agree, even the BE fans would feel shamed if they took us in right now. UCF, SMU etc recognized the landscape and invested in their programs, especially from a coaching and student-athelete support POV. They also made sure that their facilities were large enough to accommodate future growth. I am not saying the BE is the preferred landing spot but comparing the BE to the new ConfUSA is like comparing the German economy to Haiti.
SMU moved up simply by investing in a coach that could get them to a few crap bowls. At this point, we need about 3 years of decent performance before these conferences would even return our calls, this still doesn't mean that you do not actively market TU. I will say it again, IMO the biggest failure of Cowen/Dickson is that they saw how successful the move up was for Cincy, Louisville and USF then they did nothing to improve the product so we could make the same type of move. All the while SMU, UCF, Memphis (who TU enjoys several competitive advantages over) made the investments that has allowed them to move up and improve both in athletics and academics. I also want to add that I don't want to hear about the crappy BE and how it is not a fit. TCU went in and out and we could have easily used a short trip to the BE to move into the ACC/Big12. Seriously, I am guessing the ACC/Big12 would prefer to take a team from the Big East as opposed to ConfUSA, as well um that is exactly what they have consistently done!!!!!!

[ExileWave]

One burning question: Why has RD lasted so long with his legacy of losing football programs?

Tulsa: 32-37

Wash St: 31-36-1

Tulane: 50- 97 (to date)

I may be a little off, but his record, coaching decisions, and longevity (1988-2012 as an AD) prove that "wins and losses don't matter" - the fact that he has survived for 34 years with these pitiful results is beyond my comprehension.

[RWR]

The article in no way gives a voice to the fans. Tim gets a brief mention. They get to spew their lies w/no rebuttal spaced in. The media knows there is great anger among the fans so why will they not write one focused on fans and their view points. Instead like Tammy he claims he mentioned different things fans have issues with. Truth is only very glancing mention was given. Poor job.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure what rebuttal you expected, but the results are there in black and white. The focus of the piece was not on the fans, it was on the decisions made by Tulane and how it effected the past 10 years of results on the field. Fans' anger was brought up on several occasions - stadium size, review, Toledo, conference, etc.. The folks who made the decisions were asked directly about those issues and their responses were quoted.

There is expected to be another piece on academics and fans at some point as well. So stay tuned.

Fred, those are excellent points about the review. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to flesh that out quite to that extent and detail.

To everybody else on here....thanks for the feedback. I'm happy to drop in and respond anytime.

-Scott

I don't know what results you are talking about being in black and white. If you are referring to the increased finacial support that is simply not true. The fans need to be heard but the media has shut us out. If you are truly going to do one that is focused on well deserved fan anger it needs to be done immediately.

I would strongly disagree w/anyone that says this was fair and balanced. Not even close. It's just another platform for them to perpetuate their lies.

[Fred Dowler]

The story with moving up conference-wise is and has always been quite simply "Can you go to some conference and beg to be invited with a decade of losing teams in the major sports programs and regular attendance and interest in the program that's very meager and, let's be honest, on a good day at a Div. I FCS level and otherwise down to a Div. II or Div. III level?"

No.

That's a guaranteed non-starter.

If the Big XII were to invite Tulane to join up tomorrow, can you imagine the ridicule and head-scratching in the national media? Let's be honest.

The programs that have moved up largely were able to do so because of winning programs and strong regular attendance.

The TU leadership knows that there is almost nothing that they have right now and can bring to the table in those key respects and there's nothing to talk about. That's just the basic fact of the matter. Nonetheless they're looking to cover their posteriors with as much double-talk as they can get away with.

I agree, even the BE fans would feel shamed if they took us in right now. UCF, SMU etc recognized the landscape and invested in their programs, especially from a coaching and student-athelete support POV. They also made sure that their facilities were large enough to accommodate future growth. I am not saying the BE is the preferred landing spot but comparing the BE to the new ConfUSA is like comparing the German economy to Haiti.
SMU moved up simply by investing in a coach that could get them to a few crap bowls. At this point, we need about 3 years of decent performance before these conferences would even return our calls, this still doesn't mean that you do not actively market TU. I will say it again, IMO the biggest failure of Cowen/Dickson is that they saw how successful the move up was for Cincy, Louisville and USF then they did nothing to improve the product so we could make the same type of move. All the while SMU, UCF, Memphis (who TU enjoys several competitive advantages over) made the investments that has allowed them to move up and improve both in athletics and academics. I also want to add that I don't want to hear about the crappy BE and how it is not a fit. TCU went in and out and we could have easily used a short trip to the BE to move into the ACC/Big12. Seriously, I am guessing the ACC/Big12 would prefer to take a team from the Big East as opposed to ConfUSA, as well um that is exactly what they have consistently done!!!!!!

Whether SMU joining up with the Big East Conference ends up as a good deal for either party remains to be seen. It's far from a slam-dunk that the move will do much to ignite stronger interest in SMU football, as SMU of course hopes, or add much value to the Big East, who's been taking all these programs in because they've had to fill some openings that have come about because the top conferences, namely the SEC in particular, want to be super conferences and cast a dominating presence over the whole market.

Will the Big East get to the point of "well, we have little choice but to take Tulane in..." because of continued "program poaching" and, if that happens, how much of a "promised land" of major conference status would the Big East be at that point? There's your question.

[Bigschtick]

That blowhard Cowen and mentally challenged Dickson have the vast majority fooled, thats the sad and quite unbelievable part to me. I guess there are no big money donors left that insist on some straight answer and accountability. There is essentially nothing that comes out of their mouths thats approaches an honest answer. Quite depressing.

On another note, we should be grateful that Scott Kushner is around and covering Tulane athletics. He did a great job when he ran the wave report, lots of insight, scoops.etc. For what it is, this article is just fine. He really can't call out the bobsy twins like we can. Cowen will fall all over himself kissing the nimby's tuchas/tuchi(plural) but its "goes across the street" to the people who really care, the alumni, fans and friends.

[mbawavefan12]

The story with moving up conference-wise is and has always been quite simply "Can you go to some conference and beg to be invited with a decade of losing teams in the major sports programs and regular attendance and interest in the program that's very meager and, let's be honest, on a good day at a Div. I FCS level and otherwise down to a Div. II or Div. III level?"

No.

That's a guaranteed non-starter.

If the Big XII were to invite Tulane to join up tomorrow, can you imagine the ridicule and head-scratching in the national media? Let's be honest.

The programs that have moved up largely were able to do so because of winning programs and strong regular attendance.

The TU leadership knows that there is almost nothing that they have right now and can bring to the table in those key respects and there's nothing to talk about. That's just the basic fact of the matter. Nonetheless they're looking to cover their posteriors with as much double-talk as they can get away with.

I agree, even the BE fans would feel shamed if they took us in right now. UCF, SMU etc recognized the landscape and invested in their programs, especially from a coaching and student-athelete support POV. They also made sure that their facilities were large enough to accommodate future growth. I am not saying the BE is the preferred landing spot but comparing the BE to the new ConfUSA is like comparing the German economy to Haiti.
SMU moved up simply by investing in a coach that could get them to a few crap bowls. At this point, we need about 3 years of decent performance before these conferences would even return our calls, this still doesn't mean that you do not actively market TU. I will say it again, IMO the biggest failure of Cowen/Dickson is that they saw how successful the move up was for Cincy, Louisville and USF then they did nothing to improve the product so we could make the same type of move. All the while SMU, UCF, Memphis (who TU enjoys several competitive advantages over) made the investments that has allowed them to move up and improve both in athletics and academics. I also want to add that I don't want to hear about the crappy BE and how it is not a fit. TCU went in and out and we could have easily used a short trip to the BE to move into the ACC/Big12. Seriously, I am guessing the ACC/Big12 would prefer to take a team from the Big East as opposed to ConfUSA, as well um that is exactly what they have consistently done!!!!!!

Whether SMU joining up with the Big East Conference ends up as a good deal for either party remains to be seen. It's far from a slam-dunk that the move will do much to ignite stronger interest in SMU football, as SMU of course hopes, or add much value to the Big East, who's been taking all these programs in because they've had to fill some openings that have come about because the top conferences, namely the SEC in particular, want to be super conferences and cast a dominating presence over the whole market.

Will the Big East get to the point of "well, we have little choice but to take Tulane in..." because of continued "program poaching" and, if that happens, how much of a "promised land" of major conference status would the Big East be at that point? There's your question.

I doubt fans and admin at SMU are having a celebration about a BE move, but that conference is so much better then ConfUSA which is declining in several ways. Not to mention the BE will remain a rock solid top five Bball conference for the foreseeable future. Finally, a BE move would perhaps be the best move from the POV of reaching out to TU alumni in the northeast/Chicago. If we wanted to move a long term sustainable conference then that means the ACC/Big12, to do so would we be better off spending the $$ to move to the BE (I am sure the SMU board's end goal is the Big12/ACC) or remain in a crap ConfUSA where our travel costs are less but the fan interest will also be much much less? Think about all the alums that would love to see FBall/MBall trips to Rutgers, St John's, Georgetown, Depaul, Providence, UConn......that would increase donations and networking.

[Scott Kushner]

I read the comments here and then the article. I think Scott did a professional job of covering the situation, it's difficult for a journalist to go on the attack as he must maintain relationships and be as neutral as possible. Some things may have been missed but all in all this is by far one of the better TU athletics article I have read. I appreciate Tammy's efforts, but she should take note of the fact that Scott actually spoke with the AD and pres to get some decent color. Now...

Scott,

I cannot tell you how much I respect the fact that you came here and posted your thoughts. You asked for questions:

1) As stated earlier, we have been told that more capital is being invested but have seen nothing real. The schedules across the board are on the cheap. If more is being spent then lets see the details? What, when, where etc.

2) My main issue with Cowen/Dickson is the complete failure as far as conference affiliation. Sustainability is about TV and BCS revenue and not tickets/concessions. In the past decade a long list of schools recognized this importance (USF, Louisville, Cincy, SMU, Memphis, UCF etc) yet the administration failed our university despite the fact that we are the only school in one of the best high school athletics city in the country, a top academic school, AAU and large endowment/history. So my question, they failed to recognize the importance of conference affiliation and now think they should just sit back and wait to see if anyone asks them to the dance. This is not the approach that all the previous schools utilized. So my long winded comment leads to this, why have you failed to recognize the changing landscape in college athletics, what are you doing to address this concern in the future. TU saw that first wave of teams leave over the last decade (USF, Cincy, Louisville) and saw how their move up in conference improved their athletics and academics, yet we DID NOTHING!!!!

3) This is more then just football, across the board in athletics we have seen spiraling results, the sort of which would not be tolerated
in any major D1 program. Cowen talks about accountability, well who is holding Cowen and especially Dickson accountable? Not to mention that as our athletics were failing, our academics was dropping as well!!!!

3) Where are they on new majors, student-athelete support, "athlete's village", JUCO, NCAA entrance standards etc. etc. Not talk but what are they actually doing.

Thanks for the inquiry. Here is my take...

- Every single source at Tulane on either side (donor or admin) has described the increased funding as a dramatic rise. They are paying this football staff significantly more than Toledo's, the recruiting budget has grown and they in the process of tripling the support for academics which will keep at-risk students in school and on the field. You think Michael Pierce couldn't have used more support this year and it would have helped? I don't have specifics because no one, and I mean no one, will give specifics. But the increased support is fact. It is not opinion not misleading. There is bigger chunk of money traveling from the school to the AD than anytime in Cowen's tenure. I don't know if it's enough to compete at the level most Tulane fans want, but it is more and that's all I put in the piece.

- Conference affiliation is a huge problem. I questioned Cowen and Dickson on it, and they didn't give clear answers. Period. That's something they have to answer for. I just don't think they can right now. They need the interest to be mutual and while there have been hints and conversations and even presentations it hasn't amounted to much. I laid out Cowen's approach. That seems to be where his head is. I'm not advocating it.

- The new majors are also tricky because Cowen doesn't want them to appear as "dumb jock majors" but Sports Management is absolutely in the works, according to several sources. Tulane doesn't have any pressure to drop their standards right now because coaches have never used all of their exceptions, so Cowen doesn't see a huge need to address it. That's his stance.

Once again, thanks for reading. I'm going to cover the game, but I hope to drop back in here sometime tonight.

-Scott

[Jonathan]

Scott Thanks for a great article. Sadly there is a majority of negativism on this forum (rightfully so on Cowen and Dicksons development of our athletic program) . We need to hopefully concentrate on more positives such as our new football coach job performance to date and the new on campus stadium. I only respect the varied opinions of the fans that both give to TAF and attend home football games. The rest are consumed by hatred for Cowen and Dickson and spread it over the website in every post. Lay off JD,he is the leading Tulane sports fan on this forum.

[RWR]

That is typical Tulane sources that play people like you and use you. When someone doesn't give specifics then you have No facts. That's a fact.

[Scott Kushner]

That is typical Tulane sources that play people like you and use you. When someone doesn't give specifics then you have No facts. That's a fact.

If you can find one person who says there has been no increase in funds from the University to the athletic department, I'll concede the point. Every single person I've spoken to or interviewed (over a dozen) from in and around the program has stated this is a fact. I'm not sure what more you are looking for.

[JerseyWave]

I would love to have five minutes in a room with Cowen. What about accountability???? How does Rick Dickson get to keep his job???? His department is the worst performing department at Tulane. How many more coaches does he get to hire and then fire???

Cowen and Dickson don't get it. They think this small stadium will be a financial windfall. What about the millions and millions of dollars out there in TV revenue from a major conference. Their failures 10 years ago have been very costly to Tulane in the Big Picture!!!!

[RWR]

That is typical Tulane sources that play people like you and use you. When someone doesn't give specifics then you have No facts. That's a fact.

If you can find one person who says there has been no increase in funds from the University to the athletic department, I'll concede the point. Every single person I've spoken to or interviewed (over a dozen) from in and around the program has stated this is a fact. I'm not sure what more you are looking for.

I'm simply looking for one to give you specifics. We all know they lied at the playbook meeting when they stood before the crowd and claimed they had given a 26% increase . As soon as people read the pamphlet they realized that was a small % increase every year for 5 years totaled up. More importantly is have they given a significant increase to catch us up w/our conference mates. Our scheduling strongly suggest they have not put the money up that they are claiming to. That's a lot more specific than people just making claims.

[tpstulane]

Scott is 100% on the more money part, but we are still playing catch up to even our so-called peers SMU etc....

[Fred Dowler]

I read the comments here and then the article. I think Scott did a professional job of covering the situation, it's difficult for a journalist to go on the attack as he must maintain relationships and be as neutral as possible. Some things may have been missed but all in all this is by far one of the better TU athletics article I have read. I appreciate Tammy's efforts, but she should take note of the fact that Scott actually spoke with the AD and pres to get some decent color. Now...

Scott,

I cannot tell you how much I respect the fact that you came here and posted your thoughts. You asked for questions:

1) As stated earlier, we have been told that more capital is being invested but have seen nothing real. The schedules across the board are on the cheap. If more is being spent then lets see the details? What, when, where etc.

2) My main issue with Cowen/Dickson is the complete failure as far as conference affiliation. Sustainability is about TV and BCS revenue and not tickets/concessions. In the past decade a long list of schools recognized this importance (USF, Louisville, Cincy, SMU, Memphis, UCF etc) yet the administration failed our university despite the fact that we are the only school in one of the best high school athletics city in the country, a top academic school, AAU and large endowment/history. So my question, they failed to recognize the importance of conference affiliation and now think they should just sit back and wait to see if anyone asks them to the dance. This is not the approach that all the previous schools utilized. So my long winded comment leads to this, why have you failed to recognize the changing landscape in college athletics, what are you doing to address this concern in the future. TU saw that first wave of teams leave over the last decade (USF, Cincy, Louisville) and saw how their move up in conference improved their athletics and academics, yet we DID NOTHING!!!!

3) This is more then just football, across the board in athletics we have seen spiraling results, the sort of which would not be tolerated
in any major D1 program. Cowen talks about accountability, well who is holding Cowen and especially Dickson accountable? Not to mention that as our athletics were failing, our academics was dropping as well!!!!

3) Where are they on new majors, student-athelete support, "athlete's village", JUCO, NCAA entrance standards etc. etc. Not talk but what are they actually doing.

Thanks for the inquiry. Here is my take...

- Every single source at Tulane on either side (donor or admin) has described the increased funding as a dramatic rise. They are paying this football staff significantly more than Toledo's, the recruiting budget has grown and they in the process of tripling the support for academics which will keep at-risk students in school and on the field. You think Michael Pierce couldn't have used more support this year and it would have helped? I don't have specifics because no one, and I mean no one, will give specifics. But the increased support is fact. It is not opinion not misleading. There is bigger chunk of money traveling from the school to the AD than anytime in Cowen's tenure. I don't know if it's enough to compete at the level most Tulane fans want, but it is more and that's all I put in the piece.

- Conference affiliation is a huge problem. I questioned Cowen and Dickson on it, and they didn't give clear answers. Period. That's something they have to answer for. I just don't think they can right now. They need the interest to be mutual and while there have been hints and conversations and even presentations it hasn't amounted to much. I laid out Cowen's approach. That seems to be where his head is. I'm not advocating it.

- The new majors are also tricky because Cowen doesn't want them to appear as "dumb jock majors" but Sports Management is absolutely in the works, according to several sources. Tulane doesn't have any pressure to drop their standards right now because coaches have never used all of their exceptions, so Cowen doesn't see a huge need to address it. That's his stance.

Once again, thanks for reading. I'm going to cover the game, but I hope to drop back in here sometime tonight.

-Scott

Your willingness just to be having this discussion and to try to give thoughtful, candid answers is very refreshing and quite needed around here.

There are those who question what exactly the increase in resources that the administration is providing to athletics and it's a good question.

It is utterly fair after everything that's happening and hasn't happened, i.e. results on the field, to be demanding specifics and especially when the school continually pressures alumni to make donations to keep it all going.

As regards facilities though, which it seems like certain people are wont to point to as the cornerstone of the evidence of Tulane's newfound commitment to athletics.

The new baseball stadium...they've built it, yes. But...the baseball program hasn't been so strong since 2005 as it was prior to that and Tulane has yet to host a regional at the facility and, most important, college baseball is not college football or bball.

"You'll Love" Yulman Stadium...the problems with it and questions about it we have gone over many times. Suffice it to say that if Tulane's experience with such a facility ends up like SMU's experience it won't be the panacea that it's being made out to be.

The multi-sport practice gym....they've built it...great!...however, 80-year-old and tiny and obsolete Fogelman Arena continues to be the home game venue.

The renovations to Fogelman Arena...I really do not understand spending serious amounts of funds renovating a facility that's well outlived its useful life span and is now obsolete and needs to be replaced.

An indoor football practice facility...what's the latest on that?

Coaches' salaries...was Tulane really, really willing to go out and offer $1.5 million-$2 million to bring in the best possibly new head football coach last December?

New academic majors programs for athletes were touched on...it sounds like the administration is pretty squeamish about that. This is the whole key as far as I can see. If they are willing to seriously bend in this area then the newfound commitment might be for real. If not then it's all talk and hollow.

[Fred Dowler]

Scott is 100% on the more money part, but we are still playing catch up to even our so-called peers SMU etc....

Yes.

The question isn't whether TU is devoting more resources to athletics but whether what TU is doing is closing the gap between TU and the peer programs.