Big XII Expansion

Discuss anything else athletic or non-athletic related that doesn't belong on the main Tulane athletics forum.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:46 am

Fred Dowler wrote:
The Big 12 would invite a new member to join just so that they could be adding a bottom-feeder program, would they? Now, seriously, what college president or chancellor in their right mind, given this whole argument that "college presidents, not athletics directors, are going to be making this decision and that's a big deal," would flat out ignore their athletics director who would be pointing out the effect of said decision on their college's financial bottom line?
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:53 pm

At this point, it's unlikely that the Big 12 would expand. However, if it did decide to expand, it's primary target would be FSU - a team that would make significantly more per year in the Big 12 than it would in the ACC. If FSU left the ACC, it would be highly likely that at least a few more strong football programs would follow suit (Clemson, Georgia Tech, Notre Dame and/or Virginia Tech). That being said, if that were not a possibility and the conference still needed to expand, the conference would have to decide if it wanted to consider things long term or short term. Long term, teams like Tulane, Navy, and Air Force make sense, while short term, teams like BYU, Cincinnati, and USF/UCF make sense. Navy and Air Force will always be national draws, and, if they played in a major conference, it would dramatically increase their ability to draw eyeballs. Also, those two schools would be football only, and would receive lower payouts than the 10 full members. Tulane offers an outstanding new recruiting state that has limited in state competition, and, if Tulane were in a major conference, it would compare well to LSU, as Tulane offers academics that LSU cannot come close to matching. BYU, on the other hand, has a wide range of well documented issues (geography, academic direction, Sunday play, etc.) that would likely make it a more difficult addition than one would think. Cincinnati offers a new recruiting area with limited competition like Tulane, but the school does not compare well to Ohio State, as the latter has better academics and athletics. USF/UCF would face similar issues as Cincinnati with trying to compete for recruits against UF/FSU/UM. UF and UM has particularly strong academics, and that coupled with strong athletics makes it unlikely that UCF and USF could become major consistent in state alternatives to UM/UF.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:28 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:At this point, it's unlikely that the Big 12 would expand. However, if it did decide to expand, it's primary target would be FSU - a team that would make significantly more per year in the Big 12 than it would in the ACC. If FSU left the ACC, it would be highly likely that at least a few more strong football programs would follow suit (Clemson, Georgia Tech, Notre Dame and/or Virginia Tech). That being said, if that were not a possibility and the conference still needed to expand, the conference would have to decide if it wanted to consider things long term or short term. Long term, teams like Tulane, Navy, and Air Force make sense, while short term, teams like BYU, Cincinnati, and USF/UCF make sense. Navy and Air Force will always be national draws, and, if they played in a major conference, it would dramatically increase their ability to draw eyeballs. Also, those two schools would be football only, and would receive lower payouts than the 10 full members. Tulane offers an outstanding new recruiting state that has limited in state competition, and, if Tulane were in a major conference, it would compare well to LSU, as Tulane offers academics that LSU cannot come close to matching. BYU, on the other hand, has a wide range of well documented issues (geography, academic direction, Sunday play, etc.) that would likely make it a more difficult addition than one would think. Cincinnati offers a new recruiting area with limited competition like Tulane, but the school does not compare well to Ohio State, as the latter has better academics and athletics. USF/UCF would face similar issues as Cincinnati with trying to compete for recruits against UF/FSU/UM. UF and UM has particularly strong academics, and that coupled with strong athletics makes it unlikely that UCF and USF could become major consistent in state alternatives to UM/UF.
Some good points. There's still probably at most only around a 50 percent chance that the Big 12 expands. It does seem that they don't really want to. Plus, the conference commissioner did seem to emphasize that adding two new members just for the sake of having 12 members is not something that matters a lot to them.

If they do expand, then it seems obvious that what they would really and truly like to do is bring in FSU and Clemson, which, if I can recall, wasn't there some talk about that a couple of years ago? Think of how horrific a blow, btw, if that scenario were to come to pass, that that might be for the prestige football-wise of the ACC. If the ACC were to lose Georgia Tech, as well, in such a realignment episode then the ACC itself might very well be the next conference to fall out of the ranks of the majors. Which would probably further the process of formation of the top tier of college football having four superconferences of 16 members each.

Of those programs who are currently independent, except maybe Notre Dame, or who are members of one of the lower-profile conferences, BYU makes the most sense as a target (and yet, if I recall, the Big 12 more or less told BYU "thank you but no thank you..." not long ago). After BYU I can see Cincinnati having a lot going for it and then after Cincinnati the drop-off is pretty steep and there are no compelling cases.

Definitely, though, if the Big 12 does end up inviting a couple of programs from the ranks of the lower-profile conferences to join up then I've got to think that that would just about be the end of it as regards the window of opportunity for such programs to move up.
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tpstulane
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:36 pm

It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:02 pm

tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
The time when the window of opportunity for a program like TU's to make a move up or at least start the process of doing so was at its greatest in the interval from the mid to late 1980s to the early 1990s.

Also an interval btw when, in my perception, at least, men's college basketball and the NCAA Tournament were making quantum leaps as items of significance on the national college sports scene and within American culture overall.

What was TU doing at the time? "Abolishing" men's basketball, reacting to scandals, retreating from prioritizing efforts to really try to win games in the two major sports and formulating the current model/de-emphasis of athletics part II.

People talk constantly about TU leaving the SEC. People talk about Rufus Harris' actions w/r/t athletics. People talk about the 2003 review. People talk about what happened in Dec. 1998. What's not talked about, though, as far as I see, is what TU did right smack in that mid 1980s interval right when Miami, FL was making their move, Louisville was starting to (and looking to ride basketball success as a way to get there), lots of others were jumping around and the explosion of games on tv starting up. And yet that, to me, is The Main Story with TU sports post-1980, i.e. over the past 30-plus years. Leading to TU losing the following that it had circa 1980, and thus leading to the financial problems that I perceive still loom over the program (I can't buy into the talk that there constantly seems to be of TU's athletics financial picture now being so tremendously rosy...how much of that is smoke and mirrors?).
Last edited by Fred Dowler on Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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tpstulane
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:19 pm

Fred Dowler wrote:
tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
The time when the window of opportunity for a program like TU's to make a move up or at least start the process of doing so was at its greatest in the interval from the mid to late 1980s to the early 1990s.

Also an interval btw when, in my perception, at least, men's college basketball and the NCAA Tournament were making quantum leaps as items of significance on the national college sports scene and within American culture overall.

What was TU doing at the time? "Abolishing" men's basketball, reacting to scandals, retreating from prioritizing efforts to really try to win games in the two major sports and formulating the current model/de-emphasis of athletics part II. People talk constantly about TU leaving the SEC.

People talk about Rufus Harris' actions w/r/t athletics. People talk about the 2003 review. People talk about what happened in Dec. 1998. What's not talked about, though, as far as I see, is what TU did right smack in that mid 1980s interval right when Miami, FL was making their move, Louisville was starting to (and looking to ride basketball success as a way to get there), lots of others were jumping around and the explosion of games on tv starting up. And yet that, to me, is The Main Story with TU sports post-1980, i.e. over the past 30-plus years. Leading to TU losing the following that it had circa 1980, and thus leading to the financial problems that I perceive still loom over the program (I can't buy into the talk that there constantly seems to be of TU's athletics financial picture now being so tremendously rosy...how much of that is smoke and mirrors?).
Football drives the bus Basketball has little bearing on any invite.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:38 pm

tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
Actually if Tulane had done things right from the start it would still be in the SEC .
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:46 pm

winwave wrote:
tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
Actually if Tulane had done things right from the start it would still be in the SEC .
+1,000,000

And again, if we had invested in athletics and looked for a ROI either in the 80's or 90's or even late in the game on the heels of the 1998 season, we would be in a P5. But bad decisions were made, Tulane was its' own worst enemy, and as a result we're in the backwaters of D1 athletics.

I'll say it again: Law Professor Gary Powers did almost as much to hurt Tulane University as Scott Cowen. That guy should never be allowed on Tulane's campus. Then again, either should Scott Cowen.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:27 pm

tpstulane wrote:
Fred Dowler wrote:
tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
The time when the window of opportunity for a program like TU's to make a move up or at least start the process of doing so was at its greatest in the interval from the mid to late 1980s to the early 1990s.

Also an interval btw when, in my perception, at least, men's college basketball and the NCAA Tournament were making quantum leaps as items of significance on the national college sports scene and within American culture overall.

What was TU doing at the time? "Abolishing" men's basketball, reacting to scandals, retreating from prioritizing efforts to really try to win games in the two major sports and formulating the current model/de-emphasis of athletics part II. People talk constantly about TU leaving the SEC.

People talk about Rufus Harris' actions w/r/t athletics. People talk about the 2003 review. People talk about what happened in Dec. 1998. What's not talked about, though, as far as I see, is what TU did right smack in that mid 1980s interval right when Miami, FL was making their move, Louisville was starting to (and looking to ride basketball success as a way to get there), lots of others were jumping around and the explosion of games on tv starting up. And yet that, to me, is The Main Story with TU sports post-1980, i.e. over the past 30-plus years. Leading to TU losing the following that it had circa 1980, and thus leading to the financial problems that I perceive still loom over the program (I can't buy into the talk that there constantly seems to be of TU's athletics financial picture now being so tremendously rosy...how much of that is smoke and mirrors?).
Football drives the bus Basketball has little bearing on any invite.
Geez.

Did I not make it clear, for one thing, that at the same time that TU reacted to the scandals of the 1980s the way that it did and "abolished" basketball that it also severely "tightened the reins" on football, thus hurting its position with football as well as basketball at a time when there was a good window of opportunity which right now is either closed already or very close to being closed?

While I do not for a second dispute that football is number one, for another, basketball is in a solid second place and that there are only those two that matter very much.

The TU community. or many in it, somehow seem to think that basketball really doesn't matter a whole lot and or have much in the way of high expectations or goals or a vision for basketball and that response to what I said pretty much confirms it. And so I will stick up for the idea of TU being solid in basketball and placing some emphasis on that sport when I see thoughts such as these being expressed.

Plus, I can mention four examples that should be very familiar right now -- Louisville, UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis -- that have long looked to ride basketball as their way up and have had their basketball program take them pretty far, with Louisville "already there" in a one of the "majors" of college sports and the others still in much better shape in the conversation of who might get a chance to move up than TU is.

Anyway, to me, right at that same time, right after the lawsuit that took control of whose football games got on tv away from NCAA control which also happened to be right when there were several very compelling NCAA Tournaments in a row to cause people across the country to become much more keenly interested in college basketball the way that TU handled things w/r/t both sports -- the "punishment" that each of the programs was made to endure was a reaction to issues with both sports -- took itself right out of contention, out of position to even think about moving up when there was a window.
Last edited by Fred Dowler on Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:28 pm

DfromCT wrote:
winwave wrote:
tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
Actually if Tulane had done things right from the start it would still be in the SEC .
+1,000,000

And again, if we had invested in athletics and looked for a ROI either in the 80's or 90's or even late in the game on the heels of the 1998 season, we would be in a P5. But bad decisions were made, Tulane was its' own worst enemy, and as a result we're in the backwaters of D1 athletics.

I'll say it again: Law Professor Gary Powers did almost as much to hurt Tulane University as Scott Cowen. That guy should never be allowed on Tulane's campus. Then again, either should Scott Cowen.
You mean Gary Roberts.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:44 pm

DfromCT wrote:
winwave wrote:
tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
Actually if Tulane had done things right from the start it would still be in the SEC .
+1,000,000

And again, if we had invested in athletics and looked for a ROI either in the 80's or 90's or even late in the game on the heels of the 1998 season, we would be in a P5. But bad decisions were made, Tulane was its' own worst enemy, and as a result we're in the backwaters of D1 athletics.
I say that 1998 happened because there was 1.) a manageable schedule, 2.) a great group of players who also had some talent that Buddy Teevens had been to bring in and stockpile somehow and 3.) Tommy Bowden and then the very solid group of assistants that he brought in, which the more I think about it the more unbelievable it seems that TU and someone named Bowden would have ever crossed paths. In other words, sort of at least a little bit fluke-ish or "perfect storm-ish." TU really hasn't ever, as you say, looked to invest in the sports teams, except maybe for baseball, with an eye to winning consistently by design and getting a return. The time that they should have started to do that would have been in the 1980s, right around when the scandals all happened, when in fact TU was probably spending next to nothing and probably out of fear of red ink. And TU's reaction to the scandals ensured that that approach would continue.
Tulane sports: small football stadium, very small basketball arena, w̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶g̶r̶a̶m̶s̶, h̶o̶n̶e̶s̶t̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶c̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶a̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ , but, hey, now there's tailgating.
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tpstulane
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:45 pm

Fred Dowler wrote:
DfromCT wrote:
winwave wrote:
tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
Actually if Tulane had done things right from the start it would still be in the SEC .
+1,000,000

And again, if we had invested in athletics and looked for a ROI either in the 80's or 90's or even late in the game on the heels of the 1998 season, we would be in a P5. But bad decisions were made, Tulane was its' own worst enemy, and as a result we're in the backwaters of D1 athletics.
I say that 1998 happened because there was 1.) a manageable schedule, 2.) a great group of players who also had some talent that Buddy Teevens had been to bring in and stockpile somehow and 3.) Tommy Bowden and then the very solid group of assistants that he brought in, which the more I think about it the more unbelievable it seems that TU and someone named Bowden would have ever crossed paths. In other words, sort of at least a little bit fluke-ish or "perfect storm-ish." TU really hasn't ever, as you say, looked to invest in the sports teams, except maybe for baseball, with an eye to winning consistently by design and getting a return. The time that they should have started to do that would have been in the 1980s, right around when the scandals all happened, when in fact TU was probably spending next to nothing and probably out of fear of red ink. And TU's reaction to the scandals ensured that that approach would continue.
Fred you sound just like Scott Cowen who called the '98 a "fluke". Wow just wow.
viewtopic.php?t=4109&p=51899
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:08 pm

DfromCT wrote:
winwave wrote:
tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
Actually if Tulane had done things right from the start it would still be in the SEC .
+1,000,000

And again, if we had invested in athletics and looked for a ROI either in the 80's or 90's or even late in the game on the heels of the 1998 season, we would be in a P5. But bad decisions were made, Tulane was its' own worst enemy, and as a result we're in the backwaters of D1 athletics.

I'll say it again: Law Professor Gary Powers did almost as much to hurt Tulane University as Scott Cowen. That guy should never be allowed on Tulane's campus. Then again, either should Scott Cowen.
+ about $300 million, or whatever the amount of revenue we've lost over the years had we had our act together. Fred makes some valid points about the bad decisions from the 80s but that still would have been rectified had we kept the ball rolling after '98. Most of the schools that moved up like Louisville, TCU and Utah sucked in football for most of the 80s and 90s and got in because they turned their football programs around at the right time. Basketball had little impact, if any.
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Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:49 pm

tpstulane wrote: Fred you sound just like Scott Cowen who called the '98 a "fluke". Wow just wow.
viewtopic.php?t=4109&p=51899
Why the surprise? Fred has been Division 3 Advocate for over a decade, as I've tried to explain to this board.
And yes, Roberts was a snake. Really duplicitous.
Tulane got a sports law upgrade, though.
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Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:26 pm

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Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:18 pm

Both articles make sense. However, the one thing we know is that things will change in the mid term future. Without rehashing mistakes made in the past, now is the time for Tulane to be working on strengthening its hand if/when either the Big XII or ACC needs a new member(s).
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:27 am

ccap05 wrote:
Both articles make sense. However, the one thing we know is that things will change in the mid term future. Without rehashing mistakes made in the past, now is the time for Tulane to be working on strengthening its hand if/when either the Big XII or ACC needs a new member(s).
Yet we can't do that in the "mid-term future" because we still have to pay off the stadium and reportedly non-revenue sports would be next. So Tulane's leadership is playing THIS hand in the near to mid-term future and it is a comically bad hand.
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:24 am

My thought on Tulane getting into serious D1 athletics----WTF!!!! THEY CAN 'T COMPETE IN SMALL COLLEGE BALL.ASK ULL, USA, UTSA. we did beat S L U - EVEN with Price calling the plays. People , get your heads out your colons. We do have a base because of some factors-location. But as long as incompetence is running this school - my answer is the same-WTF?
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:28 pm

The ACC has a championship game so what legislation are they looking for?
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:36 pm

P5 conference expansion is inevitable, it's just a matter of when. When it does happen, nobody wants to be on the outside looking in.
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:16 pm

winwave wrote:The ACC has a championship game so what legislation are they looking for?
The ACC wants to be able to put two teams from the same division into its championship game. So, there can be a championship between FSU and Clemson in the ACC.
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:56 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
winwave wrote:The ACC has a championship game so what legislation are they looking for?
The ACC wants to be able to put two teams from the same division into its championship game. So, there can be a championship between FSU and Clemson in the ACC.
Thanks.
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:21 pm

winwave wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
winwave wrote:The ACC has a championship game so what legislation are they looking for?
The ACC wants to be able to put two teams from the same division into its championship game. So, there can be a championship between FSU and Clemson in the ACC.
Thanks.
I wonder why they just do not write into their Conference by-laws that the Championship game will be determined by rankings
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:04 pm

tpstulane wrote:It's really simple. If Tulane did things right from the start and had success you'd have P5 conferences knocking on its door wanting them instead of the other way around.
+1
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Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:05 pm

MicMan wrote:P5 conference expansion is inevitable, it's just a matter of when. When it does happen, nobody wants to be on the outside looking in.
Actually, Tulane has said otherwise via Scott Cowen's infamous "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic" verbal gaffe. But everyone gave Cowen a pass instead of a pink slip and here we are still cool with being on the outside looking in.
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