Big XII Expansion

Discuss anything else athletic or non-athletic related that doesn't belong on the main Tulane athletics forum.
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RobertM320
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Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:25 am

They still had lots of warts, as in not a good product on the field. Not even as good as Tulane when you look across the board at all sports. That's my point.


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DfromCT
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Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:06 am

RobertM320 wrote:They still had lots of warts, as in not a good product on the field. Not even as good as Tulane when you look across the board at all sports. That's my point.
I was shocked when they announced the invite. I don't know if they're "not even as good as Tulane across the board" but certainly Rutgers was not any athletic gem. They do have tremendous upside, particularly being the state "flagship University" and in the largest media market in the US.
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Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:15 am

DfromCT wrote:
RobertM320 wrote:They still had lots of warts, as in not a good product on the field. Not even as good as Tulane when you look across the board at all sports. That's my point.
I was shocked when they announced the invite. I don't know if they're "not even as good as Tulane across the board" but certainly Rutgers was not any athletic gem. They do have tremendous upside, particularly being the state "flagship University" and in the largest media market in the US.
Dave.. I am shocked and awed,..Louisiana is number one....

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:54 am

DfromCT wrote:I was shocked when they announced the invite. I don't know if they're "not even as good as Tulane across the board" but certainly Rutgers was not any athletic gem. They do have tremendous upside, particularly being the state "flagship University" and in the largest media market in the US.
This. Rutgers wasn't added to the B1G because of the strength of its athletics or even because of the potential of the strength of its athletics - Rutgers was added in order to move the B1G into the New Jersey/New York market (exposure and the B1G Network) and it was 100% worth it.
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Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:00 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:I was shocked when they announced the invite. I don't know if they're "not even as good as Tulane across the board" but certainly Rutgers was not any athletic gem. They do have tremendous upside, particularly being the state "flagship University" and in the largest media market in the US.
This. Rutgers wasn't added to the B1G because of the strength of its athletics or even because of the potential of the strength of its athletics - Rutgers was added in order to move the B1G into the New Jersey/New York market (exposure and the B1G Network) and it was 100% worth it.
NJ also has solid recruiting. Rutgers ias an AAU school. $80mm budget. They drew 50k per game in 2015 as well. Their athletic program has just been absolutely horribly managed. The add made sense when you consider all the factors.
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Wed Sep 28, 2016 12:04 pm

mbawavefan12 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:I was shocked when they announced the invite. I don't know if they're "not even as good as Tulane across the board" but certainly Rutgers was not any athletic gem. They do have tremendous upside, particularly being the state "flagship University" and in the largest media market in the US.
This. Rutgers wasn't added to the B1G because of the strength of its athletics or even because of the potential of the strength of its athletics - Rutgers was added in order to move the B1G into the New Jersey/New York market (exposure and the B1G Network) and it was 100% worth it.
NJ also has solid recruiting. Rutgers ias an AAU school. $80mm budget. They drew 50k per game in 2015 as well. Their athletic program has just been absolutely horribly managed. The add made sense when you consider all the factors.
When you say Rutger's athletic program is horribly managed, at least they have a fun looking AD. Can't say we had that with RD. :mrgreen:

http://deadspin.com/rutgers-student-tai ... 1786876482
Aberzombie1892
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Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:06 pm

mbawavefan12 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:This. Rutgers wasn't added to the B1G because of the strength of its athletics or even because of the potential of the strength of its athletics - Rutgers was added in order to move the B1G into the New Jersey/New York market (exposure and the B1G Network) and it was 100% worth it.
NJ also has solid recruiting. Rutgers ias an AAU school. $80mm budget. They drew 50k per game in 2015 as well. Their athletic program has just been absolutely horribly managed. The add made sense when you consider all the factors.
Aside from AAU status - which made Rutgers eligible to add to the B1G - everything else (recruiting, budget, attendance, state flagship, and enrollment) was icing on the cake. Rutgers was a no brainer and there is no other program in the region, Power 5 or not, that is even close to what Rutgers is, and that's not even considering Rutgers actually improving on the field. They could remain a 50/50 bowl eligible program in the B1G indefinitely and they would still be worth the add.
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Wed Sep 28, 2016 4:58 pm

GreenPuddleSplash wrote:
mbawavefan12 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
When you say Rutger's athletic program is horribly managed, at least they have a fun looking AD. Can't say we had that with RD. :mrgreen:

http://deadspin.com/rutgers-student-tai ... 1786876482
Yeah but does their fun looking U.S. Senator do it in NJ?

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Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:26 pm

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Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:10 am

DfromCT wrote:
RobertM320 wrote:But they're not going to be a conference much longer, the way they're going.
They will be fine through 2024. If/when OU or UT leaves, then you have an argument, until that happens (and it's highly unlikely to happen until the current media deals expire, for numerous reasons already outlined in this thread) there's no argument. The Big 12 is dysfunctional and appears scattter brained. But the truth is there are no obvious expansion candidates that don't have warts.
With the current gridlock, and disconnect on strategic direction, I would be shocked if the Big XII stays in tact til 2024. If they do, at their current rate they will no longer be competitively anywhere near the P4. This season alone has put a spotlight on the fact that the Big XII is falling way behind when it comes to talent. At the same time, it's quite clear that UT and OU have very different visions about what direction the conference should go. UT might be able to wait it out til 2024 just because of the LHN. But the rest of the conference, including OU, can't wait that long. They have to expand and get a conference network established. it's becoming more and more clear that UT has no interest in the northern Big XII (essentially the remainders of the old Big 8). UT is making it clear that they have more interest in resurrecting the old SWC. OU and OSU will likely be invited to join, but I doubt KSU, KU, ISU and WVU will be invited. In some respects, this has become a Boren vs Texas politicos show down, but Boren just doesn't have enough bullets in his gun. Whatever happens with UT and OU, you can be sure that they will carve themselves out a revenue package that will give them at least as much as they are getting now, even if it means the hanger-oners get substantially less. Take your pick--UT's world, or OU's world.
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DfromCT
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:05 am

The problems with OU and/or UT bailing on the Big 12 conference are that there's the GOR challenge it would create, which, at a minimum, would incur $ millions in legal fees. Additionally, they're turning their backs on agreements they put in place in the last two or three years. They'd be getting themselves into a conference that either would have more difficulty winning than the Big 12, making a shot at the Playoff that much more difficult. If they formed new conferences, they'd have to lobby for "Power" status and would be negotiating broadcast rights at a time when some of the major players (ESPN, FOX, CBS and NBC) are trying to cut back on spending, and perhaps a few years ahead of the days when Amazon, Twitter, etc are all-in.

I see the distinct possibility of the Big 12 breaking up, but I also think that the risks and costs of it happening before the GOR and current media deals expire mean it won't happen until 2024. I'm willing to see how it plays out, as NONE OF US really know what's being discussed behind closed doors.
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Aberzombie1892
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:34 am

DfromCT wrote:The problems with OU and/or UT bailing on the Big 12 conference are that there's the GOR challenge it would create, which, at a minimum, would incur $ millions in legal fees. Additionally, they're turning their backs on agreements they put in place in the last two or three years. They'd be getting themselves into a conference that either would have more difficulty winning than the Big 12, making a shot at the Playoff that much more difficult. If they formed new conferences, they'd have to lobby for "Power" status and would be negotiating broadcast rights at a time when some of the major players (ESPN, FOX, CBS and NBC) are trying to cut back on spending, and perhaps a few years ahead of the days when Amazon, Twitter, etc are all-in.

I see the distinct possibility of the Big 12 breaking up, but I also think that the risks and costs of it happening before the GOR and current media deals expire mean it won't happen until 2024. I'm willing to see how it plays out, as NONE OF US really know what's being discussed behind closed doors.
I agree with this. If nothing else, without guarantees of access status and significant tv payouts, OU and UT are not going to form their own separate conferences since they are better off where they are now.
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 9:54 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:The problems with OU and/or UT bailing on the Big 12 conference are that there's the GOR challenge it would create, which, at a minimum, would incur $ millions in legal fees. Additionally, they're turning their backs on agreements they put in place in the last two or three years. They'd be getting themselves into a conference that either would have more difficulty winning than the Big 12, making a shot at the Playoff that much more difficult. If they formed new conferences, they'd have to lobby for "Power" status and would be negotiating broadcast rights at a time when some of the major players (ESPN, FOX, CBS and NBC) are trying to cut back on spending, and perhaps a few years ahead of the days when Amazon, Twitter, etc are all-in.

I see the distinct possibility of the Big 12 breaking up, but I also think that the risks and costs of it happening before the GOR and current media deals expire mean it won't happen until 2024. I'm willing to see how it plays out, as NONE OF US really know what's being discussed behind closed doors.
I agree with this. If nothing else, without guarantees of access status and significant tv payouts, OU and UT are not going to form their own separate conferences since they are better off where they are now.
Many issues and hurdles to be sure--but they are all manageable and can be negotiated. The notion of a Plan B, and Boren's "no expansion is a game changer" would suggest that something is going to change--likely before 2024. If you think your on a sinking ship, the dilemma is how long can I afford to wait before taking action--that appears to be the question from OU's perspective.

The Big XII announced no expansion and stability just six months ago, and that didn't last three months before they were again looking for alternatives. I bet they'll once again announce "no expansion", and in about three months they'll be looking at alternatives again, but I doubt it will be a conventional expansion. Time will tell.
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Aberzombie1892
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:06 am

Maybe OU and some other Big 12 programs are looking to get enough votes to "add" BYU football the same way that the ACC added Notre Dame football. That would be fine, but it really wouldn't change much for anyone other than BYU football (i.e. more games against Big 12 teams and fewer games against AAC teams) and a little more money.
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:46 am

Read today in the local paper that Mizzou is nearly finished fundraising 75 million for a football facility next to its stadium. I figured this meant IPF. After further investigation it is not. The 75 million will be spent on a weight room, coach offices, and the ability to have the game day and practice locker rooms in one place, next to the stadium. Mind you just a couple years ago they spent 100 million on a stadium renovation and after they finish the weight/locker room building they want to renovate their IPF.

Puts Yulman in perspective! We spend on a whole stadium what middle to lower SEC spends on a weight room! :shock:
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:54 pm

Ruski wrote:Read today in the local paper that Mizzou is nearly finished fundraising 75 million for a football facility next to its stadium. I figured this meant IPF. After further investigation it is not. The 75 million will be spent on a weight room, coach offices, and the ability to have the game day and practice locker rooms in one place, next to the stadium. Mind you just a couple years ago they spent 100 million on a stadium renovation and after they finish the weight/locker room building they want to renovate their IPF.

Puts Yulman in perspective! We spend on a whole stadium what middle to lower SEC spends on a weight room! :shock:
And how much of that is Louis XIV fluff and opulence? I guess these guys literally tell the business side of the University, "Let 'em eat cake."

I know this story is a little dated but I think it's safe to say that UM could find good academic uses for the money being spent to add another grotto to Versailles.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tml?pg=all

Yes Tulane needs better athletic facilities. But as with everything, proportion and temperance matters too.
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:26 pm

Ruski wrote:Read today in the local paper that Mizzou is nearly finished fundraising 75 million for a football facility next to its stadium. I figured this meant IPF. After further investigation it is not. The 75 million will be spent on a weight room, coach offices, and the ability to have the game day and practice locker rooms in one place, next to the stadium. Mind you just a couple years ago they spent 100 million on a stadium renovation and after they finish the weight/locker room building they want to renovate their IPF.

Puts Yulman in perspective! We spend on a whole stadium what middle to lower SEC spends on a weight room! :shock:
Gosh, it's depressing that you use a "shocked" emoji.

Not only is this is no way new information or a new perspective, but I and others here have been discussing as much here for years. This is what happens when a lie gets repeated, and that lie was that Yulman was "evidence of a commitment", when any context would suggest Yulman was evidence of a commitment to not competing on a national level.
Aberzombie1892
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Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:21 pm

It looks like a TCU source says TCU will vote no on expansion.

http://www.frogsowar.com/2016/9/29/1310 ... -expansion
Ruski
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Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:46 am

jonathanjoseph wrote:
Ruski wrote:Read today in the local paper that Mizzou is nearly finished fundraising 75 million for a football facility next to its stadium. I figured this meant IPF. After further investigation it is not. The 75 million will be spent on a weight room, coach offices, and the ability to have the game day and practice locker rooms in one place, next to the stadium. Mind you just a couple years ago they spent 100 million on a stadium renovation and after they finish the weight/locker room building they want to renovate their IPF.

Puts Yulman in perspective! We spend on a whole stadium what middle to lower SEC spends on a weight room! :shock:
Gosh, it's depressing that you use a "shocked" emoji.

Not only is this is no way new information or a new perspective, but I and others here have been discussing as much here for years. This is what happens when a lie gets repeated, and that lie was that Yulman was "evidence of a commitment", when any context would suggest Yulman was evidence of a commitment to not competing on a national level.

Relax. I keep up with college football more than 98% of people out there. Doesn't mean I keep up with every figure. It wouldn't surprise me if SEC schools spent 4/5 times more than Tulane on their stadiums but a little shocked they spend so much on seemingly little things like a weight room. How much did the new dorm cost, 20 million?
Last edited by Ruski on Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RobertM320
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Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:50 am

And its done..........

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
Big 12 expansion is unofficially dead. Bowlsby has heard from all 10 schools. No school has more than 5 votes.

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
Two factions exist that have enough votes to block the only two schools acceptable to ESPN and Fox.

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
By the way...sources at both UT and OU said two interesting things. 1 is that neither school has determined their long term plans yet.

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
The Big 12 is simply the best place to be right now and could be for the long-term but its not decided.

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
The 2nd important point is that if they choose to leave they will do so without taking anyone with them....

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
No coattails.

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
Neither OU or UT are thinking of leaving.... I know that upsets a certain faction of their fans... but that decision is at least 5 years out

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
The death of B12 expansion is not a determining factor in the future viability of the conference.
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RobertM320
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Fri Sep 30, 2016 11:52 am

Jus B ‏@CincyBeerGuru 3h3 hours ago
@theDudeofWV So schools like BYU and UC lost votes?

Christopher Lambert ‏@theDudeofWV 3h3 hours ago
@CincyBeerGuru Preliminary votes are just opinion polls. They don't count. This one did... nobody wants to expand.
Michael ‏@palmer4Cy 3h3 hours ago
@theDudeofWV I am going to enjoy ISU in the American/Mountain West.

GLockfort ‏@glockfort 2h2 hours ago
@palmer4Cy @theDudeofWV BIG 12 Iowa State students started the ruckus w/ anti-BYU crap. The boomerang will hit them when left out of P5, LOL
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Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:09 pm

Ruski wrote:
jonathanjoseph wrote:
Ruski wrote:Read today in the local paper that Mizzou is nearly finished fundraising 75 million for a football facility next to its stadium. I figured this meant IPF. After further investigation it is not. The 75 million will be spent on a weight room, coach offices, and the ability to have the game day and practice locker rooms in one place, next to the stadium. Mind you just a couple years ago they spent 100 million on a stadium renovation and after they finish the weight/locker room building they want to renovate their IPF.

Puts Yulman in perspective! We spend on a whole stadium what middle to lower SEC spends on a weight room! :shock:
Gosh, it's depressing that you use a "shocked" emoji.

Not only is this is no way new information or a new perspective, but I and others here have been discussing as much here for years. This is what happens when a lie gets repeated, and that lie was that Yulman was "evidence of a commitment", when any context would suggest Yulman was evidence of a commitment to not competing on a national level.

Relax. I keep up with college football more than 98% of people out there. Doesn't mean I keep up with every figure. It wouldn't surprise me if SEC schools spent 4/5 times more than Tulane on their stadiums but a little shocked they spend so much on seemingly little things like a weight room. How much did the new dorm cost, 20 million?
Well you can't say you follow that closely if you are 10 years behind the financial trends. And I and others were being shouted down on this very forum for pointing out such things before ground was broken.

So many posters complain that I'm repeating myself and yet so many posters don't internalize the message.
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Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:13 pm

Well, if true:

1. TV Networks dominated the decision by only deeming two programs acceptable. Tulane never had a shot - neither did all programs except maybe 4 - and, given the tv network standard, Tulane is 5+ years away from even having a -shot- at being deemed acceptable by any major network over the other available expansion options.

2. OU and UT haven't decided on what would be best for them in the long term, however, if they did choose to leave, they would not bring Texas Tech or Oklahoma State with them. The latter would allow them to join the same conference if they wanted to do so without bringing along any other programs, but, if they remained in the Big 12, they could continue to play their current rivals, maintain relatively easy road trips to games for their fanbases, and still be in control of a Power/access conference. If OU/UT ever did leave, the remaining conference wouldn't be too shabby and would likely cherry pick from the AAC at that time assuming that the other Power conferences didn't expand - but - if the other Power conferences did expand, they would generally raid the Big 12 over AAC or BYU programs.

3. The Big 12 missed an opportunity to expand its recruiting footprint. Prior to the conference realignment in 2010/2013, every Power conference had relevant exclusive recruiting states, but that changed once Texas A&M joined the SEC - The PAC has CA, the B1G has MI and OH, the SEC has MS, LA, TN, and AL, the ACC has VA and NC, and the Big 12 had TX. The loss of Texas A&M changed that for the Big 12 and it had an opportunity to rectify that by breaking the B1Gs exclusive access to OH and the SECs exclusive access to LA (and even TN). This could eventually haunt the conference.
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Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:01 pm

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Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:29 pm

Blackout 11/5
‏@TwittCommit
The XII seems to be as unsettled as ever & if there's a power struggle between OU & UT my bet is the conference will fall apart quickly.


Blackout 11/5
@TwittCommit
Reports this morning confirm OU may be looking to leave XII due to "rift" with UT. PAC 12 or SEC mentioned as possible destinations. - ESPN
"ASK AND YE SHALL RECEIVE! HANG EM AND BANG EM! HANG EM AND BANG EM!"-- Todd Graffagnini
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