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Discuss anything else athletic or non-athletic related that doesn't belong on the main Tulane athletics forum.
JDTulane
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:36 am

OUG wrote:We went from 41 to a five way tie for 39. I'm not sure how many schools we were tied with last year, but many of them were the same schools. We are talking miniscule movements here, and even the smallest movement in the wrong direction statistically would have sent us back to like 45. That would have given people an aneurism around here.

I just think it's more important to look at the range here than the exact number. We could easily move backwards next year without any substantive difference.

We were in a 3 or 4 way tie before.


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Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:30 pm

Well, TheAdvocate puts a prettier spin to all of this:

"Tulane, a private university, this year climbed to No. 39 – its highest ranking in more than 16 years. Last year, it ranked No. 41 and the year before it was 54.

“We are pleased by this national recognition and the spotlight it shines on the innovative and inspired teaching, learning and discovery happening at Tulane University,” Tulane President Mike Fitts said."

http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/ ... 9f487.html
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:46 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
RobertM320 wrote:So how do you explain that in 1998 when Cowen took over we were #34, and by 2002 we were #46? Katrina would have nothing to do with that. And even after 2002 he had 13 years to fix it, and yet when he left we were #54. So all of a sudden, in 24 months we make a 15 place jump and he gets the credit? I don't buy that one bit.
US News is a trailing gauge given the way it evaluates faculty resources/graduation rates/retention rates/Financial resources/graduation performance rate/academic peer scores in that those aren't issues that can be significantly impacted in a year or two, and they account for 82.5% of the total US News score. In addition, Tulane acceptance rate (12.5% of score) - a metric that can be more easily influenced in the short term - has been going down the rankings (i.e. increasing) over the last few years. All of that together equals 95% of the entire score, and the only item that remains is living alumni giving percentage (5%). In regard to giving, Tulane has had 6 consecutive years of increases in alumni giving according to the article below, so even though alumni giving has increased until the current Tulane president, it was increasing in the last few years under the Cowen as well and that may be what the tweet is referring to - that alumni giving was steadily increasing under Cowen and it continued under the new president.

http://giving.tulane.edu/s/1586/Giving/ ... calcid=752

If Tulane started moving down the rankings in between 1998 and 2002, odds are that it was heading down no matter who was brought on as president as the indicators would be trailing what was going on in the last year or two of the prior president.
You ever consider peer reviews were influenced by Cowen leaving?

My concern is that Cowen used his typical smoke and mirrors to get here, just like the acceptance rate.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:52 pm

Probably not for two reasons. (1) Peer review scores are difficult to change, and, when they do, they generally trail changes in admissions stats (ACT/GPA/SAT) and (2) a lot of "peers" that fill out these surveys at different universities view Cowen highly. The latter is primarily result of (1) Cowen guiding Tulane back to prominence after Hurricane Katrina, (2) Cowen's work on FBS reforms after Tulane didn't get a BCS bowl after the 1998 season, and (3) Cowen's emphasis on students being engaged in their community (i.e. community service).

All of that being said, it's possible that the surveys were filled out incorrectly, as that has happened in the past for Tulane (i.e. Freeman MBA admission stats/GPA/GMAT).
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:04 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Probably not for two reasons. (1) Peer review scores are difficult to change, and, when they do, they generally trail changes in admissions stats (ACT/GPA/SAT) and (2) a lot of "peers" that fill out these surveys at different universities view Cowen highly. The latter is primarily result of (1) Cowen guiding Tulane back to prominence after Hurricane Katrina, (2) Cowen's work on FBS reforms after Tulane didn't get a BCS bowl after the 1998 season, and (3) Cowen's emphasis on students being engaged in their community (i.e. community service).

All of that being said, it's possible that the surveys were filled out incorrectly, as that has happened in the past for Tulane (i.e. Freeman MBA admission stats/GPA/GMAT).
Just wanted to say that the Freeman example was more of the B. School cooking their books rather than filling them out incorrectly.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:11 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Probably not for two reasons. (1) Peer review scores are difficult to change, and, when they do, they generally trail changes in admissions stats (ACT/GPA/SAT) and (2) a lot of "peers" that fill out these surveys at different universities view Cowen highly. The latter is primarily result of (1) Cowen guiding Tulane back to prominence after Hurricane Katrina, (2) Cowen's work on FBS reforms after Tulane didn't get a BCS bowl after the 1998 season, and (3) Cowen's emphasis on students being engaged in their community (i.e. community service).

All of that being said, it's possible that the surveys were filled out incorrectly, as that has happened in the past for Tulane (i.e. Freeman MBA admission stats/GPA/GMAT).
How the hell do you know this?

He gutted the engineering department, folded Newcomb and canned a ton of Profs post Katrina, so the argument can be made that many in academia in fact do not like him. Also he used smoke and mirrors to artificially deflate our accpetnace rate, which may not have gone over well either. Not to mention P5 presidents probably were not enamored by his attempts to break up the BCS cartel.

We have a $20mm budget gap and probably blew one of our last chances to get into a P5.....nevermind the engineering, STEM situation, business school mess and debt load. Screw that guy.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:30 pm

Our illegitimate “country cousin” LSU ranks no. 135 for this year. http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/ ... ft_amplify

UL System Flagship La. Tech is now no. 202. And, our "little friend" ULALA still has no published rank for yet another year. :shakingno:

See USN&WR Rankings for Louisiana: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... olleges/la
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:13 pm

mbawavefan12 wrote:How the hell do you know this?

He gutted the engineering department, folded Newcomb and canned a ton of Profs post Katrina, so the argument can be made that many in academia in fact do not like him. Also he used smoke and mirrors to artificially deflate our accpetnace rate, which may not have gone over well either. Not to mention P5 presidents probably were not enamored by his attempts to break up the BCS cartel.

We have a $20mm budget gap and probably blew one of our last chances to get into a P5.....nevermind the engineering, STEM situation, business school mess and debt load. Screw that guy.
MBA, don't misunderstand, I fully agree that he made a series of terrible decisions - reviewing football/destroying STEM/maintained a deficit/etc., but I disagree wholeheartedly on how academia views him, and, for the purpose of this discussion, academia is defined as the people who fill out the US News survey - Presidents, Provosts, and the Deans of Admissions. In general, those individuals may not even be aware that Tulane cut it's STEM programs to the extent that they did, and, if they are aware, it's unlikely that those cuts would outweigh their pre-existing opinion of Tulane or the fact that Tulane was able to maintain high admissions standards post Katrina (which was/is impressive). In contrast, Cowen has received an extraordinary amount of national recognition/awards/honorary degrees for his work at Tulane and in the community - the list awards is virtually bottomless and even Time listed him as a top 10 College President at one point. Think of it through an example - if you are the Dean of Admissions of the University of Washington and you don't keep up with Tulane since you don't consider your university to be a direct competitor with Tulane, but you see that Time says that Tulane's president is in the top 10 college presidents, would you mark Tulane low on a US News Survey for that? Of course not.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:39 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
mbawavefan12 wrote:How the hell do you know this?

He gutted the engineering department, folded Newcomb and canned a ton of Profs post Katrina, so the argument can be made that many in academia in fact do not like him. Also he used smoke and mirrors to artificially deflate our accpetnace rate, which may not have gone over well either. Not to mention P5 presidents probably were not enamored by his attempts to break up the BCS cartel.

We have a $20mm budget gap and probably blew one of our last chances to get into a P5.....nevermind the engineering, STEM situation, business school mess and debt load. Screw that guy.
MBA, don't misunderstand, I fully agree that he made a series of terrible decisions - reviewing football/destroying STEM/maintained a deficit/etc., but I disagree wholeheartedly on how academia views him, and, for the purpose of this discussion, academia is defined as the people who fill out the US News survey - Presidents, Provosts, and the Deans of Admissions. In general, those individuals may not even be aware that Tulane cut it's STEM programs to the extent that they did, and, if they are aware, it's unlikely that those cuts would outweigh their pre-existing opinion of Tulane or the fact that Tulane was able to maintain high admissions standards post Katrina (which was/is impressive). In contrast, Cowen has received an extraordinary amount of national recognition/awards/honorary degrees for his work at Tulane and in the community - the list awards is virtually bottomless and even Time listed him as a top 10 College President at one point. Think of it through an example - if you are the Dean of Admissions of the University of Washington and you don't keep up with Tulane since you don't consider your university to be a direct competitor with Tulane, but you see that Time says that Tulane's president is in the top 10 college presidents, would you mark Tulane low on a US News Survey for that? Of course not.
Those things aren't relevant. Time Magazine rankings don't mean anything in real life, and if you are talking about inner circles of academia than you have to assume they know he cut STEM and hid a $20M/year deficit. Cowen's national recognition comes from his professional PR efforts, which I'm sure makes many academics' skin crawl.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:44 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
mbawavefan12 wrote:How the hell do you know this?

He gutted the engineering department, folded Newcomb and canned a ton of Profs post Katrina, so the argument can be made that many in academia in fact do not like him. Also he used smoke and mirrors to artificially deflate our accpetnace rate, which may not have gone over well either. Not to mention P5 presidents probably were not enamored by his attempts to break up the BCS cartel.

We have a $20mm budget gap and probably blew one of our last chances to get into a P5.....nevermind the engineering, STEM situation, business school mess and debt load. Screw that guy.
MBA, don't misunderstand, I fully agree that he made a series of terrible decisions - reviewing football/destroying STEM/maintained a deficit/etc., but I disagree wholeheartedly on how academia views him, and, for the purpose of this discussion, academia is defined as the people who fill out the US News survey - Presidents, Provosts, and the Deans of Admissions. In general, those individuals may not even be aware that Tulane cut it's STEM programs to the extent that they did, and, if they are aware, it's unlikely that those cuts would outweigh their pre-existing opinion of Tulane or the fact that Tulane was able to maintain high admissions standards post Katrina (which was/is impressive). In contrast, Cowen has received an extraordinary amount of national recognition/awards/honorary degrees for his work at Tulane and in the community - the list awards is virtually bottomless and even Time listed him as a top 10 College President at one point. Think of it through an example - if you are the Dean of Admissions of the University of Washington and you don't keep up with Tulane since you don't consider your university to be a direct competitor with Tulane, but you see that Time says that Tulane's president is in the top 10 college presidents, would you mark Tulane low on a US News Survey for that? Of course not.
I know from talking directly with a provost that the attempts to manipulate acceptance rates did not go over well. I cannot speak to the other issues.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:59 pm

JJ, I hear you and I agree to an extent - think Cowen's negatives pretty much outweigh his positives - but we are all getting off track. My point is that Tulane's ranking increase is likely the result of the 6 consecutive years of increases in alumni giving and not because of our peer score increased -because- Cowen is no longer president. I'm extraordinary confident in this given the consistency of Tulane's scores/admissions and the positive popular opinion of Cowen (Cowen hate seems to only exist with Tulane alumni community and with people in the tech field), but I'm having difficulty finding historical peer review scores for undergrad. If anyone can find them from Cowen's last two years on, please let me know.
mbawavefan12 wrote: I know from talking directly with a provost that the attempts to manipulate acceptance rates did not go over well. I cannot speak to the other issues.
You're talking about the MBA program, correct? That's different than what we are talking about. The MBA surveys go to business school deans and directors and not to Presidents/Provosts/Admissions Dean's the way that the undergraduate surveys do, and Tulane's MBA rank certainly reflects the mistakes that were made there.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:31 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:JJ, I hear you and I agree to an extent - think Cowen's negatives pretty much outweigh his positives - but we are all getting off track. My point is that Tulane's ranking increase is likely the result of the 6 consecutive years of increases in alumni giving and not because of our peer score increased -because- Cowen is no longer president. I'm extraordinary confident in this given the consistency of Tulane's scores/admissions and the positive popular opinion of Cowen (Cowen hate seems to only exist with Tulane alumni community and with people in the tech field), but I'm having difficulty finding historical peer review scores for undergrad. If anyone can find them from Cowen's last two years on, please let me know.
mbawavefan12 wrote: I know from talking directly with a provost that the attempts to manipulate acceptance rates did not go over well. I cannot speak to the other issues.
You're talking about the MBA program, correct? That's different than what we are talking about. The MBA surveys go to business school deans and directors and not to Presidents/Provosts/Admissions Dean's the way that the undergraduate surveys do, and Tulane's MBA rank certainly reflects the mistakes that were made there.
Nope, talking about undergrad. They allowed students to submit (TMK) a basic free 1-2 page application with no essays. Boston College did something similar but stopped the prgram (TMK again) once they got a ton of backlash.

From what I understand the increase had a lot more to do with grad rates and retention rates. Being a pricey school in NOLA Tulane had problems retaining students compared to their peers. Basically a number of students either partied their way out or just found the craziness of NOLA too much for them. They fixed this by forcing more students on campus and providing better support.

Basically when everyone else was adjusting to the rankings, Cowen was smelling his own farts, just like how other schools saw the importance of athletics yet Cowen was hiring the Bob Toledo and Ed Conroy's of the world. It took time but he finally realized how the game is played I just fear that he is using band aids (sort of Yulmanish) instead of addressing the core problems.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:35 pm

Well, in that case, we sort of agree in the sense that the removal of Cowen himself wasn't the cause for the increase in rank, but we disagree on whether it was alumni giving vs. grad/retention rates - which is perfectly fine. The only reason that I draw attention to the alumni giving is that historically, Tulane has been horrible in that metric, and, given the 6 consecutive years of increases in that area, it seems likely that any increase in Tulane's rank is at least partially tied to those increases. Honestly, I'm not too familiar with Tulane's graduation rates, but I had been under the impression that they had pretty much leveled out after Tulane graduated all of the classes impacted by Katrina.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:01 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Well, in that case, we sort of agree in the sense that the removal of Cowen himself wasn't the cause for the increase in rank, but we disagree on whether it was alumni giving vs. grad/retention rates - which is perfectly fine. The only reason that I draw attention to the alumni giving is that historically, Tulane has been horrible in that metric, and, given the 6 consecutive years of increases in that area, it seems likely that any increase in Tulane's rank is at least partially tied to those increases. Honestly, I'm not too familiar with Tulane's graduation rates, but I had been under the impression that they had pretty much leveled out after Tulane graduated all of the classes impacted by Katrina.
Oh they pushed hard having undergrads calling alums to give and basically bring attention to the importance for USNEWS. I think we perhaps disagree on how Cowen is viewed as far as peer reviews but that's an impossible question to definitively answer.
It just feels like Cowen was always a step behind. Here's a great story BTW.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/arti ... -rankings/
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:06 pm

Dr. Rosenrosen wrote:The annual rankings drop continues at Tulane, yet tuition and fees increase with no end in sight.
You mean rise. Tulane was 41 last year.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:09 pm

JDTulane wrote:Horrific
What's horrific about moving up two spots and back in the Top 40 for the first time since the late 90s early 2000s?
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:42 pm

Bottom line, we fell out of the Top 40 right after Cowen got here, and we're back in the Top 40, and trending upward, after he's gone-- that's all I'm going to focus on--he was an egotistical two-legged disaster for Tulane.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:53 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Given the trailing nature of the US News Rankings, it's unlikely that the new president has been at Tulane long enough to make a major impact on them. Whether we like it or not, it wouldn't make sense to not attribute the majority of the increase to Cowen's regime.
One of the reasons we dropped so much under Cowen was that his Administration refused to complete and divulge certain information. I don't know exactly what that information was, but Cowen himself cited this as a reason for the drop about 3 years before he left. If the Fitts administration is now completing the necessary forms and disclosing information then I would absolutely give him credit.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:58 pm

mbawavefan12 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:JJ, I hear you and I agree to an extent - think Cowen's negatives pretty much outweigh his positives - but we are all getting off track. My point is that Tulane's ranking increase is likely the result of the 6 consecutive years of increases in alumni giving and not because of our peer score increased -because- Cowen is no longer president. I'm extraordinary confident in this given the consistency of Tulane's scores/admissions and the positive popular opinion of Cowen (Cowen hate seems to only exist with Tulane alumni community and with people in the tech field), but I'm having difficulty finding historical peer review scores for undergrad. If anyone can find them from Cowen's last two years on, please let me know.
mbawavefan12 wrote: I know from talking directly with a provost that the attempts to manipulate acceptance rates did not go over well. I cannot speak to the other issues.
You're talking about the MBA program, correct? That's different than what we are talking about. The MBA surveys go to business school deans and directors and not to Presidents/Provosts/Admissions Dean's the way that the undergraduate surveys do, and Tulane's MBA rank certainly reflects the mistakes that were made there.
Nope, talking about undergrad. They allowed students to submit (TMK) a basic free 1-2 page application with no essays. Boston College did something similar but stopped the prgram (TMK again) once they got a ton of backlash.

From what I understand the increase had a lot more to do with grad rates and retention rates. Being a pricey school in NOLA Tulane had problems retaining students compared to their peers. Basically a number of students either partied their way out or just found the craziness of NOLA too much for them. They fixed this by forcing more students on campus and providing better support.

Basically when everyone else was adjusting to the rankings, Cowen was smelling his own farts, just like how other schools saw the importance of athletics yet Cowen was hiring the Bob Toledo and Ed Conroy's of the world. It took time but he finally realized how the game is played I just fear that he is using band aids (sort of Yulmanish) instead of addressing the core problems.
Exactly right. The guy bet against STEM and athletics, which is more or less the two dumbest things any college president could have done over the past ~20 years. Other than silly magazine articles, the conclusion to draw is fairly clear.
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Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:05 pm

This is amazing. Scott Kushner "credited Cowen" in a Tweet and Cowen actually responded by thanking him. Not only that, Cowen liked his own Tweet, as did Yvette Jones.

What a bunch of thin skinned losers. The idea that the President of a $B organization is that thin skinned that he needs to publicly thank a sports journalist for a minor complement is utterly amazing.

https://twitter.com/ScottDKushner/statu ... 4339429378
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Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:41 pm

Robert1969 wrote:
JDTulane wrote:Horrific
What's horrific about moving up two spots and back in the Top 40 for the first time since the late 90s early 2000s?

That was a post from 2010 ;p
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Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:56 pm

mbawavefan12 wrote:Oh they pushed hard having undergrads calling alums to give and basically bring attention to the importance for USNEWS. I think we perhaps disagree on how Cowen is viewed as far as peer reviews but that's an impossible question to definitively answer.
It just feels like Cowen was always a step behind. Here's a great story BTW.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/arti ... -rankings/
Well, technically, we would have an answer concerning how academics view Cowen in regard to the US News Rankings if I could just find the historical US News peer scores. I cannot find it anywhere and I've been looking fairly hard for it. This is the one time that I actually want to find something US News publishes.
DfromCT wrote:One of the reasons we dropped so much under Cowen was that his Administration refused to complete and divulge certain information. I don't know exactly what that information was, but Cowen himself cited this as a reason for the drop about 3 years before he left. If the Fitts administration is now completing the necessary forms and disclosing information then I would absolutely give him credit.
Really? I've never heard anything about this other than the tulane med school stopped sending US News data once the med school rankings split from one category into two and the med school experienced some major ranking drops as a result.

http://www2.tulane.edu/news/releases/ar ... y_evil.cfm
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Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:48 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
mbawavefan12 wrote:Oh they pushed hard having undergrads calling alums to give and basically bring attention to the importance for USNEWS. I think we perhaps disagree on how Cowen is viewed as far as peer reviews but that's an impossible question to definitively answer.
It just feels like Cowen was always a step behind. Here's a great story BTW.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/arti ... -rankings/
Well, technically, we would have an answer concerning how academics view Cowen in regard to the US News Rankings if I could just find the historical US News peer scores. I cannot find it anywhere and I've been looking fairly hard for it. This is the one time that I actually want to find something US News publishes.
DfromCT wrote:One of the reasons we dropped so much under Cowen was that his Administration refused to complete and divulge certain information. I don't know exactly what that information was, but Cowen himself cited this as a reason for the drop about 3 years before he left. If the Fitts administration is now completing the necessary forms and disclosing information then I would absolutely give him credit.
Really? I've never heard anything about this other than the tulane med school stopped sending US News data once the med school rankings split from one category into two and the med school experienced some major ranking drops as a result.

http://www2.tulane.edu/news/releases/ar ... y_evil.cfm
Cowen said so in a greater NYC alumni event my guess is in 2011 or 2012. He was answering a question about the rankings seeming to go in the wrong direction. I was told by others (as I didn't get to ask a follow up question) that the information withheld pertained to graduation rates (4,5 and 6 year) and alumni giving statistics. There was little grumbling as most of the folks there were drinking the kool aide. I was considered rude for asking the question!

LOL, I guess I'm good at pissing people off when seeking or speaking the truth about things related to Tulane.
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Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:40 pm

JDTulane wrote:
Robert1969 wrote:
JDTulane wrote:Horrific
What's horrific about moving up two spots and back in the Top 40 for the first time since the late 90s early 2000s?

That was a post from 2010 ;p
Yes, I see that now. But that's a problem of over-condensing of these threads. Shouldn't 2015's rankings have a separate thread from 2010s?
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Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:47 pm

Robert1969 wrote:
JDTulane wrote:
Robert1969 wrote:
JDTulane wrote:Horrific
What's horrific about moving up two spots and back in the Top 40 for the first time since the late 90s early 2000s?

That was a post from 2010 ;p
Yes, I see that now. But that's a problem of over-condensing of these threads. Shouldn't 2015's rankings have a separate thread from 2010s?
Actually 2010 was when JD joined. The post was from 2014, when it was our score was at #54. Of course, if you're logged in, it should go to the first unread post anyway, and you should never have seen the "Horrific" post. Unless, of course, you didn't read this thread in 2014! :D
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