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Discuss anything else athletic or non-athletic related that doesn't belong on the main Tulane athletics forum.
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MicMan
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Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:21 am

Stone cold logic. ^^^^^^

That'll never fly here :)


DfromCT
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Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:00 pm

I blame him for sending repeated signals that we didn't want to compete at the highest levels. He took on the BCS and bad mouthed the power conferences. It was a blatant mis-read of the tea leaves and at a critical time in the college athletics industry.

With the Big 12, WVU makes no sense even today from a geographical standpoint. Louisville isn't exactly in the middle of the ACC map, yet they got in after a few good years in football. Keep in mind, we were better than them in football in the late 90's, until Cowen went behind a great AD's back and hired Chris Scelfo. You can argue that Louisville got into the ACC as much for basketball as football, but the 90's were probably the best decade of Tulane basketball in my lifetime.
" For every alum, no matter where they are...I want a football coach that's going to make Saturday something you anticipate and look forward to." --Troy Dannen

Thank you all for your support as my son Zach continues to beat leukemia
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Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:25 pm

DfromCT wrote:I blame him for sending repeated signals that we didn't want to compete at the highest levels. He took on the BCS and bad mouthed the power conferences. It was a blatant mis-read of the tea leaves and at a critical time in the college athletics industry.

With the Big 12, WVU makes no sense even today from a geographical standpoint. Louisville isn't exactly in the middle of the ACC map, yet they got in after a few good years in football. Keep in mind, we were better than them in football in the late 90's, until Cowen went behind a great AD's back and hired Chris Scelfo. You can argue that Louisville got into the ACC as much for basketball as football, but the 90's were probably the best decade of Tulane basketball in my lifetime.
+1,000 And Louisville had great basketball long before it got into the ACC--it was their commitment to football that got them over the top and into the ACC, despite it's weak academic standing and the stench of corruption and controversy that constantly hangs over it. Of course it now turns out that Duke, along with Louisville, is going to get sucked into the currently unfolding basketball scandal--so maybe the ACC wasn't as pristine as I thought. Not only did Cowen misread the tea leaves, I don't think he even knew what the tea leaves were--he was completely clueless about the real world.
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Wave755
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Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:53 pm

I still remember Cowen on ABC’s Nightline proclaiming Div. 1 athletics “financially unsustainable” and announcing himself as the face and spokesman of those opposed to the BCS. At the dawn of the BCS era with a football team ranked 7th in the nation for the final AP poll and RR begging to coach our team, Cowen hired Georgia’s offensive line coach for 350k a year, and the nightmare of Case Western Tulane for athletics had begun.

And, once Cowen was conclusively proven wrong as to the BCS it became an "ego thing" with him and he then tried to end football completely in 2003 at Tulane.
DfromCT
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Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:49 pm

HoustonWave wrote:
DfromCT wrote:I blame him for sending repeated signals that we didn't want to compete at the highest levels. He took on the BCS and bad mouthed the power conferences. It was a blatant mis-read of the tea leaves and at a critical time in the college athletics industry.

With the Big 12, WVU makes no sense even today from a geographical standpoint. Louisville isn't exactly in the middle of the ACC map, yet they got in after a few good years in football. Keep in mind, we were better than them in football in the late 90's, until Cowen went behind a great AD's back and hired Chris Scelfo. You can argue that Louisville got into the ACC as much for basketball as football, but the 90's were probably the best decade of Tulane basketball in my lifetime.
+1,000 And Louisville had great basketball long before it got into the ACC--it was their commitment to football that got them over the top and into the ACC, despite it's weak academic standing and the stench of corruption and controversy that constantly hangs over it. Of course it now turns out that Duke, along with Louisville, is going to get sucked into the currently unfolding basketball scandal--so maybe the ACC wasn't as pristine as I thought. Not only did Cowen misread the tea leaves, I don't think he even knew what the tea leaves were--he was completely clueless about the real world.
Duke is NOT getting sucked in. According to ALL articles I've read Duke had a less than minor violation: the mother of a player had lunch with an agent. There has not been any additional charges or rumors of wrong-doing leveled at Duke. I think some of the "Journalists" like to include Duke without disclosing the ridiculous nature of the violation just for the shock/headline factor.

I know some will accuse me of being a Duke apologist. I am. I have family ties to Coach K and Duke basketball. I have no ties to other Duke sports, regardless of what some troll keeps posting about me telling this forum Duke would never play Tulane in football. I would never make that claim, because I just don't know. I went to my two Duke sources, one of which (my brother in law) is on a first name basis with Coach K, about this story when it broke. They told me to try and dig deeper because there's nothing there other than a violation involving a $70 lunch tab for a current players mom with the agent. And that agency is banned from Duke campus.
" For every alum, no matter where they are...I want a football coach that's going to make Saturday something you anticipate and look forward to." --Troy Dannen

Thank you all for your support as my son Zach continues to beat leukemia
Aberzombie1892
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Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:01 am

DfromCT wrote:I blame him for sending repeated signals that we didn't want to compete at the highest levels. He took on the BCS and bad mouthed the power conferences. It was a blatant mis-read of the tea leaves and at a critical time in the college athletics industry.

With the Big 12, WVU makes no sense even today from a geographical standpoint. Louisville isn't exactly in the middle of the ACC map, yet they got in after a few good years in football. Keep in mind, we were better than them in football in the late 90's, until Cowen went behind a great AD's back and hired Chris Scelfo. You can argue that Louisville got into the ACC as much for basketball as football, but the 90's were probably the best decade of Tulane basketball in my lifetime.
Like with the TCU spot in the Big 12 or Rutgers’ spot in the B1G, there was nothing Tulane could have done to take Louisville’s spot. Even In terms of only programs in this region, there hasn’t been any teams added to a P5 in recent memory where Tulane could have potentially taken their spot.

That’s not to say Cowen didn’t make mistakes, but it is to say that it’s worth asking which spot Tulane would have had had things turned out differently, and it honestly doesn’t look like any.
DfromCT
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Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:04 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:I blame him for sending repeated signals that we didn't want to compete at the highest levels. He took on the BCS and bad mouthed the power conferences. It was a blatant mis-read of the tea leaves and at a critical time in the college athletics industry.

With the Big 12, WVU makes no sense even today from a geographical standpoint. Louisville isn't exactly in the middle of the ACC map, yet they got in after a few good years in football. Keep in mind, we were better than them in football in the late 90's, until Cowen went behind a great AD's back and hired Chris Scelfo. You can argue that Louisville got into the ACC as much for basketball as football, but the 90's were probably the best decade of Tulane basketball in my lifetime.
Like with the TCU spot in the Big 12 or Rutgers’ spot in the B1G, there was nothing Tulane could have done to take Louisville’s spot. Even In terms of only programs in this region, there hasn’t been any teams added to a P5 in recent memory where Tulane could have potentially taken their spot.

That’s not to say Cowen didn’t make mistakes, but it is to say that it’s worth asking which spot Tulane would have had had things turned out differently, and it honestly doesn’t look like any.
I don't necessarily agree that TCU was a shoo in, or that Rutgers was either. Tulane made more sense for the Big 12 from a geographical standpoint, but our lack of sustained success, and Cowen's anti BCS campaigns and "The Review" ruled us out of consideration. Given the other Texas schools already in the conference I would think they would have loved to have a foot in New Orleans rather than more competition in Texas. We will never know, however, because Cowen made sure we weren't even part of the discussion.

Rutgers is the flagship state university in a talent rich state. It would have been a stretch for the B1G to add Tulane, from a geographical standpoint AND from a program standpoint. As the Big East was breaking up, Rutgers beat Tulane like a drum in Piscataway. They had already accepted their bid, but that game showed how far we were from being competitive at the time with a Power 6 team. I think we had a better shot in the late 90's to early 2000's, had we hired RR and kept bowling for a few years, of getting into the Big 12 or ACC. Louisville only got in when their football became consistently good (and ranked).

Again, my point is that we will never know because Cowen took us out of the conversation both directly and indirectly.
" For every alum, no matter where they are...I want a football coach that's going to make Saturday something you anticipate and look forward to." --Troy Dannen

Thank you all for your support as my son Zach continues to beat leukemia
Aberzombie1892
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:52 am

DfromCT wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:I blame him for sending repeated signals that we didn't want to compete at the highest levels. He took on the BCS and bad mouthed the power conferences. It was a blatant mis-read of the tea leaves and at a critical time in the college athletics industry.

With the Big 12, WVU makes no sense even today from a geographical standpoint. Louisville isn't exactly in the middle of the ACC map, yet they got in after a few good years in football. Keep in mind, we were better than them in football in the late 90's, until Cowen went behind a great AD's back and hired Chris Scelfo. You can argue that Louisville got into the ACC as much for basketball as football, but the 90's were probably the best decade of Tulane basketball in my lifetime.
Like with the TCU spot in the Big 12 or Rutgers’ spot in the B1G, there was nothing Tulane could have done to take Louisville’s spot. Even In terms of only programs in this region, there hasn’t been any teams added to a P5 in recent memory where Tulane could have potentially taken their spot.

That’s not to say Cowen didn’t make mistakes, but it is to say that it’s worth asking which spot Tulane would have had had things turned out differently, and it honestly doesn’t look like any.
I don't necessarily agree that TCU was a shoo in, or that Rutgers was either. Tulane made more sense for the Big 12 from a geographical standpoint, but our lack of sustained success, and Cowen's anti BCS campaigns and "The Review" ruled us out of consideration. Given the other Texas schools already in the conference I would think they would have loved to have a foot in New Orleans rather than more competition in Texas. We will never know, however, because Cowen made sure we weren't even part of the discussion.

Rutgers is the flagship state university in a talent rich state. It would have been a stretch for the B1G to add Tulane, from a geographical standpoint AND from a program standpoint. As the Big East was breaking up, Rutgers beat Tulane like a drum in Piscataway. They had already accepted their bid, but that game showed how far we were from being competitive at the time with a Power 6 team. I think we had a better shot in the late 90's to early 2000's, had we hired RR and kept bowling for a few years, of getting into the Big 12 or ACC. Louisville only got in when their football became consistently good (and ranked).

Again, my point is that we will never know because Cowen took us out of the conversation both directly and indirectly.
Adding Tulane made more sense to the Big 12 than adding a Texas team in one of the largest two metropolitan areas in the nation (Dallas or Houston metroplexes) where the Big 12 had no existing representative? That's a tough one even if Tulane generally won 8 games in a functional G5 conference. The Big 12 was going to add a Texas team regardless in order to compensate for and to mitigate against the effects of the loss of Texas A&M to the SEC, so the only question was whether they were going to add TCU or Houston, and, since TCU had had more success and more stability at HC by winning less than 8 games in a season once during the 2002-2011 seasons with zero changes at HC during that period, they went the safer route and picked TCU.

Of course the B1G was not going to add the Tulane, and that was my point. We can complain about Cowen, but it looking at what occured since 2000, there does not appear to have been a spot in a power conference that went to a different school that could have went to Tulane. If the Big 12 had expanded in 2015-2016 and that expansion did not include Tulane, the argument could be made that its Cowen's fault that Tulane was not selected, however, because that did not happen, it's difficult to say that Tulane could have potentially replaced TCU/WVU/Louisville/Maryland/Rutgers for one of their spots particularly given that the latter four were moving from one power conference (Big East or ACC) to another (Big 12 or B1G) and the former was replacing another Texas team that left a power conference for another power conference (Big 12 to SEC).
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:18 am

Zombie, you don't get my point: That Cowen prevented us from even being in consideration because he attacked the system and allowed that teams to stink. It would have been a mockery of the P6/P5 system to invite Tulane, so we weren't even considered.

And I know that the discussion with the Big 12 was about Houston vs. TCU. But again, had Tulane been a legitimate expansion candidate, which we were not and really have never been, there might have been a push from OU and UT to not add another Texas school. TCU didn't raise the bar from a TV standpoint as much as a Louisiana top 35 team would have raised the recruiting territory. And as far as the ACC goes, Tulane would have been no more of an outlayer than WVU is to the Big 12. And it would have added a lot more from recruiting and media market than WVU did for the Big 12. Yes, coming out of a power conference helped WVU. But had Tulane been more attractive than Louisville, we would have AT LEAST been considered. We were not considered.

I see you're point, but mine has to do with the hypothetical situation that Cowen prevented from ever having a chance of being our reality.
" For every alum, no matter where they are...I want a football coach that's going to make Saturday something you anticipate and look forward to." --Troy Dannen

Thank you all for your support as my son Zach continues to beat leukemia
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:05 am

Had Cowen had us in any kind of shape at all, which he didnt, whose to say that the Big 12 might not have expanded to twelve schools, instead of to ten with TCU and West Va. If Cowen hadn’t turned us into a dumpster fire, perhaps we would have got in along with UH. But by then Cowen had turned us into a standing joke—and at the time, there was no other logical fourth team for an expansion to twelve schools. Remember, Tulane has been considered by old SWC schools since the early 90’s when we were on the verge of a SWC offer, to replace Arkansas. Instead the SWC was raided by the Big 8.
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Aberzombie1892
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:36 pm

DfromCT wrote:Zombie, you don't get my point: That Cowen prevented us from even being in consideration because he attacked the system and allowed that teams to stink. It would have been a mockery of the P6/P5 system to invite Tulane, so we weren't even considered.

And I know that the discussion with the Big 12 was about Houston vs. TCU. But again, had Tulane been a legitimate expansion candidate, which we were not and really have never been, there might have been a push from OU and UT to not add another Texas school. TCU didn't raise the bar from a TV standpoint as much as a Louisiana top 35 team would have raised the recruiting territory. And as far as the ACC goes, Tulane would have been no more of an outlayer than WVU is to the Big 12. And it would have added a lot more from recruiting and media market than WVU did for the Big 12. Yes, coming out of a power conference helped WVU. But had Tulane been more attractive than Louisville, we would have AT LEAST been considered. We were not considered.

I see you're point, but mine has to do with the hypothetical situation that Cowen prevented from ever having a chance of being our reality.
I do get your point, but I'm just saying that given the way that expansion has played out in the post 2000 period, there were not any spots that Tulane could have realistically have taken from a different school even if Cowen hadn't irritated anyone or if Tulane had become a generally bowl eligible team. The only teams from a G5 equivalent conference to move to a power equivalent conference in that period were were Utah and TCU, and there does not appear to be a plausible scenario where Tulane could have taken one of those two spots even if it had had more success than it did during that period.

TCU was not added primarily for TV - it was a replacement school for Texas A&M and the point is that the Big 12 wasn't going to lose a Texas school to the SEC and not replace it with another Texas school. Basically, if Houston had been better at football and TCU had been worse at football during that period, Houston could have easily been added in TCU's place, but Tulane was never in consideration for that spot and that approach made sense.

The WVU and Tulane comparison doesn't make sense from the perspective of a power conference. In 2011, the year before WVU entered the Big 12, it was the (power conference) Big East co-champion, won the Orange Bowl (making it 3-0 in BCS games and it scored 70 in this game), won the Lambert-Meadowlands Trophy (best FBS team in the East), won 10 games, finished the season 17 in the AP poll, and averaged 56,532 in attendance. Even if Tulane had had a much better set of circumstances in the 2000s, which of those markers would it have reasonably surpassed to have made it more attractive than WVU? I don't have tv viewership from 2011, but I think we all know what it would say historically and what it would have said in a hypothetical world where Tulane had been better at football - being successful in a non-power conference is not as valuable as being successful in a power conference.

As for Louisville, it was just as much a replacement school for Maryland the way that TCU was for Texas A&M, and, for that reason, the only other schools that were even considered were UConn and Cincinnati (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-footba ... cincinnati). There is no scenario where Tulane would have fit into the replacement category for Maryland if for absolutely no other reason than geography, as the ACC wasn't expanding that far from its' core schools unless it was for a game changer.
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Sun Mar 25, 2018 4:56 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:Zombie, you don't get my point: That Cowen prevented us from even being in consideration because he attacked the system and allowed that teams to stink. It would have been a mockery of the P6/P5 system to invite Tulane, so we weren't even considered.

And I know that the discussion with the Big 12 was about Houston vs. TCU. But again, had Tulane been a legitimate expansion candidate, which we were not and really have never been, there might have been a push from OU and UT to not add another Texas school. TCU didn't raise the bar from a TV standpoint as much as a Louisiana top 35 team would have raised the recruiting territory. And as far as the ACC goes, Tulane would have been no more of an outlayer than WVU is to the Big 12. And it would have added a lot more from recruiting and media market than WVU did for the Big 12. Yes, coming out of a power conference helped WVU. But had Tulane been more attractive than Louisville, we would have AT LEAST been considered. We were not considered.

I see you're point, but mine has to do with the hypothetical situation that Cowen prevented from ever having a chance of being our reality.
I do get your point, but I'm just saying that given the way that expansion has played out in the post 2000 period, there were not any spots that Tulane could have realistically have taken from a different school even if Cowen hadn't irritated anyone or if Tulane had become a generally bowl eligible team. The only teams from a G5 equivalent conference to move to a power equivalent conference in that period were were Utah and TCU, and there does not appear to be a plausible scenario where Tulane could have taken one of those two spots even if it had had more success than it did during that period.

TCU was not added primarily for TV - it was a replacement school for Texas A&M and the point is that the Big 12 wasn't going to lose a Texas school to the SEC and not replace it with another Texas school. Basically, if Houston had been better at football and TCU had been worse at football during that period, Houston could have easily been added in TCU's place, but Tulane was never in consideration for that spot and that approach made sense.

The WVU and Tulane comparison doesn't make sense from the perspective of a power conference. In 2011, the year before WVU entered the Big 12, it was the (power conference) Big East co-champion, won the Orange Bowl (making it 3-0 in BCS games and it scored 70 in this game), won the Lambert-Meadowlands Trophy (best FBS team in the East), won 10 games, finished the season 17 in the AP poll, and averaged 56,532 in attendance. Even if Tulane had had a much better set of circumstances in the 2000s, which of those markers would it have reasonably surpassed to have made it more attractive than WVU? I don't have tv viewership from 2011, but I think we all know what it would say historically and what it would have said in a hypothetical world where Tulane had been better at football - being successful in a non-power conference is not as valuable as being successful in a power conference.

As for Louisville, it was just as much a replacement school for Maryland the way that TCU was for Texas A&M, and, for that reason, the only other schools that were even considered were UConn and Cincinnati (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-footba ... cincinnati). There is no scenario where Tulane would have fit into the replacement category for Maryland if for absolutely no other reason than geography, as the ACC wasn't expanding that far from its' core schools unless it was for a game changer.
What I can't figure is why the ACC didn't take WVa, instead Louisville. Both schools have similarly competent football and basketball, both schools are academic bottom feeders, but geographically, WVa is virtually in the middle of the ACC. While WVa has controversial fans, it doesn't have the stench and controversy that seems to always follow Louisville. During this year's NCAA basketball playoffs, they were commenting on how wearing the Big 12 travel is for WVa athletics. I suspect that even today WVa wouldn't think twice about leaving the Big 12 if an ACC invite arrived.
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Aberzombie1892
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:25 am

HoustonWave wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
DfromCT wrote:Zombie, you don't get my point: That Cowen prevented us from even being in consideration because he attacked the system and allowed that teams to stink. It would have been a mockery of the P6/P5 system to invite Tulane, so we weren't even considered.

And I know that the discussion with the Big 12 was about Houston vs. TCU. But again, had Tulane been a legitimate expansion candidate, which we were not and really have never been, there might have been a push from OU and UT to not add another Texas school. TCU didn't raise the bar from a TV standpoint as much as a Louisiana top 35 team would have raised the recruiting territory. And as far as the ACC goes, Tulane would have been no more of an outlayer than WVU is to the Big 12. And it would have added a lot more from recruiting and media market than WVU did for the Big 12. Yes, coming out of a power conference helped WVU. But had Tulane been more attractive than Louisville, we would have AT LEAST been considered. We were not considered.

I see you're point, but mine has to do with the hypothetical situation that Cowen prevented from ever having a chance of being our reality.
I do get your point, but I'm just saying that given the way that expansion has played out in the post 2000 period, there were not any spots that Tulane could have realistically have taken from a different school even if Cowen hadn't irritated anyone or if Tulane had become a generally bowl eligible team. The only teams from a G5 equivalent conference to move to a power equivalent conference in that period were were Utah and TCU, and there does not appear to be a plausible scenario where Tulane could have taken one of those two spots even if it had had more success than it did during that period.

TCU was not added primarily for TV - it was a replacement school for Texas A&M and the point is that the Big 12 wasn't going to lose a Texas school to the SEC and not replace it with another Texas school. Basically, if Houston had been better at football and TCU had been worse at football during that period, Houston could have easily been added in TCU's place, but Tulane was never in consideration for that spot and that approach made sense.

The WVU and Tulane comparison doesn't make sense from the perspective of a power conference. In 2011, the year before WVU entered the Big 12, it was the (power conference) Big East co-champion, won the Orange Bowl (making it 3-0 in BCS games and it scored 70 in this game), won the Lambert-Meadowlands Trophy (best FBS team in the East), won 10 games, finished the season 17 in the AP poll, and averaged 56,532 in attendance. Even if Tulane had had a much better set of circumstances in the 2000s, which of those markers would it have reasonably surpassed to have made it more attractive than WVU? I don't have tv viewership from 2011, but I think we all know what it would say historically and what it would have said in a hypothetical world where Tulane had been better at football - being successful in a non-power conference is not as valuable as being successful in a power conference.

As for Louisville, it was just as much a replacement school for Maryland the way that TCU was for Texas A&M, and, for that reason, the only other schools that were even considered were UConn and Cincinnati (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-footba ... cincinnati). There is no scenario where Tulane would have fit into the replacement category for Maryland if for absolutely no other reason than geography, as the ACC wasn't expanding that far from its' core schools unless it was for a game changer.
What I can't figure is why the ACC didn't take WVa, instead Louisville. Both schools have similarly competent football and basketball, both schools are academic bottom feeders, but geographically, WVa is virtually in the middle of the ACC. While WVa has controversial fans, it doesn't have the stench and controversy that seems to always follow Louisville. During this year's NCAA basketball playoffs, they were commenting on how wearing the Big 12 travel is for WVa athletics. I suspect that even today WVa wouldn't think twice about leaving the Big 12 if an ACC invite arrived.
That’s a tough one. The Big 12 is a better basketball conference than the ACC in terms of having a higher average percentage of the conference selected for the NCAAM tournament over the last 4-5 years (higher than 67% on average), the Big 12 averages ~10,000 more in attendance for football games than the ACC (which has the worst attendance of the power conferences), the Big 12 has a significantly higher average conference + 3rd tier payout revenue than the ACC, and the list goes on.

The long and short of it is that WVU probably wouldn’t leave the Big 12 for the ACC even if the ACC wanted it and there was no penalty for WVU leaving the Big 12.
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Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:59 pm

D/Ct I am on a first name basis with the Northwestern men's BB coach but that does not make me an insider.

I am also on a first name basis with Phil Jackson but that did not make me a Bulls or Knicks insider.

And your being the relative of a person makes you even less credible.

Family Ties. BS.
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